"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch
"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch

Episode 123 · 8 months ago

What You Get Wrong About Sales with Mike Simmons

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Sales is a key focus for many businesses. Everyone has a strategy and when it does not work we reach out to others for help. Hoping there is a magic bullet that we are missing. How do you overcome the "debt" of bad habits?

My guest, Mike Simmons, founder of Catalyst Sales shares his strategies to unlock your process in order to make it easy for your team and for your customers.

An exciting, tactical conversation. Take notes!!!

Enjoy and don't forget to subscribe and share. 

About Mike Simmons

More than 25 years of operations, consulting, sales and sales leadership experience, 22 in the EdTech/enablement technology space, 3 in cybersecurity. Life long learner, creative, analytical, and driven to achieve results. Mike has built, lead, and optimized sales organizations leveraging both direct and indirect teams. Husband, father, and aspiring golfer.

Links

https://catalystsale.com/

https://twitter.com/simmons_m

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikesimmons/

https://www.instagram.com/catalystsale/

https://findmycatalyst.com/ 

About Glenn Pasch:

"Everyone finds themselves in charge at some point in their lives. Yet many of us lack the skills to generate consistent results. My goal is to help you learn the skills to adapt and grow in your personal and business life.”

Glenn Pasch is CEO of PCG Digital, a full service digital marketing agency that specializes in helping businesses create and deliver customers raving, recommending & returning for more. He is author of 2 books including "The Power of Connected Marketing" and has spoken and educated audiences throughout the US and internationally.

Let’s Connect:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glennpasch/

Personal Website http://glennpasch.com/

Company website: https://pcgdigital.com/

Support for this episode comes from PCG digital. It is anywhere from difficult to impossible to manage every aspect of the changing digital landscape. Rather than trying to do it yourself, why not leave it to an award winning team of Digital Marketing Specialists who have mastered at all connect to your message with more potential customers with PCG digital? Go to PCG digitalcom for more information. For those of you who are in charge of a team, could be the whole business or just an individual department, one of the biggest questions I'm asked all the time is how do I help their performance, meaning what do I need to do every single day to help my team improve? Is it the process? Is it refining the process? Is it coaching? Is it listening, mentoring, motivating? And it's probably all of the above, but many people ask, can you give me some tactical advice, some tactical strategies? Well, that's why I brought Mike Simmons on the podcast today. He is the founder of catalyst sale and that's what he does. He helps organizations with these struggles. He helps refine processes, making sure that its streamline, getting rid of outdated pieces of the process, that are no longer working, as well as helping those in the position to coach and develop team build those skills. He's also the host of a very popular podcast called finding your catalyst, where it's helping people move forward. As he says, actions cause results. That's what I always say, and if you're not really putting in the work, well then you can't expect the results that you want. So I'm really excited for you to hear our conversation. Might share some very tactical things that you can apply today to help your team improve. So let's dive into today's episode of you're in charge now what with Mike Simmons, founder of Catalyst Sale. Okay, Mike, so thank you so much for being here. I'm always excited when previous guests recommend people to me and say you really need to talk to this person, especially when it comes to sales, and I think every business sales is the hurdle, struggle focus in order to be successful and I think a lot of people get it wrong. So that's where I want to start. You've had a long career building companies and now you're working with companies to help them with the specific issue. So if someone's bringing you in to say help me with sales. Where are they going wrong? Thinking that it will happen really, really fast, like there's this magic bullet, this kind of shortcut, that we're going to be able to come in and all of a sudden, magically, we're going to increase sales significantly because there's some trick that you is the business owner, use, the founder. You is the leadership team inside the organization. Just have not been able to figure out, even as you've gone through a couple of different leaders in the business. You think there's always something better. It's kind of like the grass is always greener. There's somebody else has figured it out. It's kind of like health and fitness, when you look at the person who is just an amazing shape or not on the cover of a magazine. Will they've figured it out. I just need to do what they did. You don't have their genes. You've have this technical debt that you've created over a long period of time. Yet you believe that just because you have a conversation with them or you bring them into your organization, all of a sudden magic is going to happen. I think that is the biggest challenge and unfortunately, people like me tend to sell that challenge right. Okay, so so you said two things that I want to make sure our audience really and I want to pick your brain on it. One is that sense of time. Right. It is that consistency over time. I just was recording something about the, you know, end of the year, and I said momentum and compound interest. You know, building that momentum takes time. But before we get to that, you said something and I it just struck me as there it is. It's that that idea of this debt that you've built up of either bad habits or, in the sense of a business, maybe a patchwork of ideas or just there's no consistency or maybe there's no process or no accountability. So you have to unravel this dead it seems like, before you move forward. Is it? Did I hear that correctly? You absolutely know that and many times people forget about it because you just keep you think of you think of these paintings that they're discovering in in...

...garage sales, where it just gets paint and layer of paint, than another layer of paint, than another layer of paint and another layer of paint. Everybody forgets what the first layer of paint was. How do we get here? Right this? You go through this process of unraveling, asking some really deliberate, difficult questions, in some cases both internally and externally, internally inside your organization, because you've got people who will remember it, and a lot of times people will remember the good and they'll forget your different points and everybody's perspective of what happened is going to be slightly different. We also forget to go out and have those same conversations with existing customers, with customers that we've lost, with customers that we were not able to win. So if we don't go through the pros us, how can we expect to get better unless we just happen to get lucky, and sometimes people get lucky right, right. But so it sounds like again, what I'm hearing is we all have a problem with just adding on and it becomes this Frankenstein Monster. You know, I've worked with a few clients where I've looked in there crm, you know, their management tool, and you almost could see when they brought in a trainer, because someone brought their style or their process in and lay and no one did what I called ever did a spring cleaning and went back and just said, are we even using this? And so you just keep layering it on. So how does one do that? Do we have to go back to the core and say really go back to the basics of well, what are we trying to accomplish? How do we want to handle our customers? What do we want to say, and then see take that, take that work to go through every single step and say does this match to what we want? If not, get rid of it. Is it that Labor intensive? I think the questions are simple enough that it's not that labor intensive and it doesn't need to take a long time. This doesn't need to be a six month or eighteen months we wild or you like refinishing a house. We don't have to do that. It's it's saying, okay, here's an area that we want to focus on. Let's focus on this first. Let's accomplish that and move things forward, and I think the the questions that you ask are really important. They come around some basic who, what, why? where? When type questions. What problem really solving? Who Cares about that problem? Why does the problem persist? Why do they need to solve that problem and by asking those questions across the organization you can create better alignment. And when you ask those simple questions, in my experience what you'll find out is there are different perspectives that people have across the organization that can create this misalignment and start to create friction where it was never intended to exist, and it's really because we're not going back and revisiting those basic items. Now the risk is someone's listening to this and they're saying, wow, that sounds like a lot of work, it's going to take a lot of time. I have to move forward. I need to keep the business moving. Keep the business moving. You've got to keep the business moving. You can still do this kind of work in parallel. Now that's crm discussion that you're talking about, where there's this major spring cleaning overhaul. Those are nightmare type activities. You don't want to have your revenue team, your sales team going through and doing it. You want to have somebody else take care of it. Where the impact on the new customer acquisition side of the business or the success side of the business, whichever area or your focused on, or however you have your team segmented. You're not having those people who are generating revenue going back and doing the clean up. There's technical ways that you can go through right, create the cleanup and just ask those basic questions. So we have this data, we created this field. What are we using it for? Right? Does it matter? How is it impacting decision as we make? If it's, if we're not using it, it doesn't matter. It doesn't impact decisions. Let's eliminate it and simplify what we're working on so that we can move a lot faster as leaders in an organization, as organization. So going through the shortcut is actually going through all of the steps and not skipping those steps, because if you skip the steps, you you take on risk, and everybody is okay with taking out a little bit of risk. Right. Well, but so so again, when I love what they you keep saying it doesn't take a lot of time, and that is a fear of people and that's why I think they keep layering things on. Is All right, forget, forget what we did before. We have a brand new widgety thing and a new process, and here's our new process until the next new process comes in. But what I like about this and audience. Two things that Mike said. One is asking the stakeholders, the people who are actually...

...in the forefront, at the front line, are you using this? Yes or no? Is this helpful? Yes or no, and then allowing someone else to do that clean up. We don't want to take the revenue producers time up with something that is not aligned with what they should be doing, which is generating revenue. So I really, really like that idea of really getting team buying, allowing people to say, Oh, yeah, we don't use that, and having the the the strength to be able to remove that, to put your people in a position to continue to do their work in a streamline, more efficient, effective way of doing things. Yeah, that's what they're there for, right. What's the what's the job that they're responsible for? And then if you and think about it, if you fall into the trap and but I wish I had someone like you, to Finn to follow me around at summarize points, because you've you've taken many more words and bring them down into a fewer words. There's this the vicious cycle you get into when you constantly go through and rearrange the deck chairs around the titanic, or whatever it is whatever metaphor you want to use, and they know I tend to bounce around on these. But this process that you go through every time you do it, you take people away from their core job, which is either generating demand or advancing developing pipeline from a revenue team perspective, and they might do that with new customers or with existing customers. However, your business is the structure. When you take them out of that operation and you create these speed bumps that they have to work on that are more operationally oriented administratively oriented, then you delay the speed to impact that they'll have on their core role and inevitably will end up happening. You. You'll see the impact and pipeline two, three, depending on sales cycles, right whatever, you'll see it at some point in the future and then the question will come up, why is so and so behind? And then we forget we had so and so go through and do this right cleaning exercise. So it be be smart with the way that you leverage resources and that everybody can can afford to bring in other people. What I would suggest, though, is can you really afford to have your high paid professionals that are out there generating revenue doing this kind of work that you could bring in. Yes, exactly, you can bring someone. Well, the other thing that I always say to people, as you've been in this position for a year or two, whatever, you know, you've been through using this cycle for a while. It does now the all be cleaned up tomorrow, you know, over you could set a time frame and table will adjust this a little bit and allow people to do this. But I but I like that because also the fact of keeping the cheap, you know, constantly changing, as you said, rearranging the debt chairs. No one gets a chance to really sink their teeth into a process and do it to see what works or doesn't work, because every thirty days but we have a new idea. Mike went to a conference, came back with a new idea, he read a book, we have a new idea, and so everyone just no one really wants to dive in and learn something, to into much depth, because who knows, forty five days from now we might be doing something completely different. So let me poke, though. Let's pivot a little bit then, so to let's talk about you know, we talked right there about process and structuring there, but you also mentioned something early on, about time everyone thinks it's going to happen. Do you see that the same with hiring of salespeople, the expectations of performance? I spoke with someone else, Ryan Dowdy, who was a few episodes ago, talking about we're inpatient with new salespeople. We get frustrated if they're not selling today and again, depending on your sales cycle, the product, whatever it is. How do you do you see that frustration as well, or impatience where we almost get rid of people before they're really ready to performer, as you said, hit that really threshold of performance and a lot of times the impatience it can either be driven by so there's something so yes, I see it and in some instances it's warranted and at the same time we have to be realistic about the way that we evaluate data in order to be able to make effective to decisions when it comes to making a making a change, going through the process of now hire, replacing that wrap, or do we add additional coaching or training? What kind of support resources that we put in place to help accelerate the speed to ramp or speed to on boarding? If they're the first wrap or maybe even the fifth rep that you've hired inside and organization.

HMM, over a period of time, it's probably unlikely that you have a consistent model that you can go back to to say this is exactly how a rep should be on boarded and should go through the ramping process. Then this is where they should be at a certain period of time. Right happens is folks go to a conference or they read a book and they say your account of senior account executive should ramp up within a three month period. Well, in what operating environment, based on what experience? What stage is that company are? We are we early stage, pre product mark of prerevenue head the ramp time is going to be a heck of a lot longer. prerevenue. That first rap is probably augmenting the founder inside the business. Later on down the road, when you've got a couple hundred reps inside and organization, you've got specialized teams, you can kind of plug and play people around, then your speed the ramp is is going to be significantly more predictable than the next set of questions I might want to ask our are we bringing in someone from a new industry into our industry because we believe that they may help us innovate. That new oxygen. New Blood brings new oxygen. They may have a different way of doing things. So now their ramp time is going to be a little bit slower because they're not as familiar with our space. Or am I bringing someone in who was selling the same thing? They were selling fords at a dealership in Mapor Villele annoy and now I'm moving them to fords in you know, selling forwards and aims Iowa or some rights like that. That's going to be the expectations are going to be a bit different. And the way that I would summarize that as context matters. If we're not going through and looking at things inappropriate context, asking the right questions, identifying where applying spots are, we might make our patients might disappear right or reduce or we might make decisions that are a little bit quicker without complete information and we might get ourselves into a situation where we're constantly just putting plugging new widgets into the machine hoping to get some other result, when we're not actually giving the giving our team time or our organization time or customer based time to actually get really good feedback to determine what's our what's our timeline, not what the market says our timeline should be or what others say our timeline. What's our actual timeline in center of business. I say I love that because that's really clear to me and I'm hoping the audience, you know, understood that, because there's so many variables and one of the variables that you talked about that I never really thought of in that way. But it makes sense. If you know, if you if you're just starting out and you just have a few people and that were salespeople, you don't have enough data or run way to really understand what your sale cycle is, you know, so you're still trying to figure out. Do I call them? Do a email them? Do I go in front of them? Do I not? All of those variables, you know. Number two would be that idea of are you? Are you even known in your industry? Right? So, if you're mature enough where marketing has the ability to create the awareness, so to your example, if I sold forwards and I go somewhere else and I sell for I understand the product. Now I need to understand the you know, audience, the type of people. Okay, but at least I know the product, but if all of a sudden it's a brand new product, no one's heard of it before, you're not going to get in the door and get those presentations. So that might be a longer runway versus no, I'm an established fortune five hundred company. People know who we are. We've been doing it for ten years. Here's our system and, as you said, we have data that we can say, here's our average employee, here's our average run, here are the mile markers. That makes complete sense. I don't think a lot of people think that way. I think they all think we're a mature business and we have a figured out and we don't give people enough runway. What are the you'd mentioned one of the companies I work for. Company was Safari Books Online. We were referred to ourselves safari. Started working there in about two thousand and eight. Two Thousand and two thousand and eight. One of the most common things responses that would I would get when I said I started working for this company called Safari, the web browser, right, but and safari books on. So you sell books about going to Africa and going...

...out on Safari. Like there's just all of this confusion. That was right. and Yo. Once people started to connect the dots between safari and O'Reilly be media and Pierson Technology Group, wortort of the joint venture partners who started this business, then there was an okay, now, I understand, but yet there our expectation, the expectation that I had not only of myself as it started there as an individual contributor, but as we brought reps on, is it's very different to sell safari that it was to sell skill soft, because skill soft in the D text space, everybody knew who they were. They've gone through this process of acquiring a right smart force. So yeah, it just it's a sometimes we lose sight of it because we're so close to our business that we just and we're talking about it all the time. We just think everybody knows about it right and at that. That's a great point. I have a very dear friend. He's the owner of a very large advertising and website firm and he always jokes, you know, I have all of these clients, you know, his few thousand clients, and he says, I think people know who I am, but then I'll go to a large conference, I'll introduce myself and I'll say hi, I'm the owner of X Y Z company and people look and go, well, what do you do? And he goes all of a sudden very humbling to think that not everyone does know who you are. So you have to make sure that you're constantly doing, as you said, that marking, that branding expanding so there isn't any confusion in that market place. So so, building off of what you said briefly in that when we were talking about time, you said resources for the individual, so that my brain immediately went to training and development of these groups. So when you've built teams, and I think this is a strong will for many, many people who are in the position of leading teams, one is do they have a process to train individuals ongoing, not just new higher have they ever been taught how to train? So if somebody was sitting in front of you and says I have a team and you know I'm responsible for their performance, so it's two parts. One is, what are your thoughts on what I should be doing with them daily to help them six EED, let's assume they're inside where I can see what they're doing. And then number two is how do I scale that, like if I need to grow this team. What are things I should be thinking about. So let's start with the first piece. Their daytoday. How would you and your experience either, have led your team develop them, to make them better? How did you help them grow? Big thing, especially when you're in your having a team that's all in the same location as really powerful. You can go in a room where there's a white board and you can start drawing some things up on the white board and it when you start doing that, you ideally you're getting people around the table or in the room starting to nod and starting to contribute and there's this high level of engagement where we're learning from each other. So one of the advantages of having a team that's in the same location is you get this. You can take advantage of the opportunity of everybody learning together and getting better together, because they can hear the reps that other people are going through, they hear other people on the phone, they can talk about challenges that they're running into. So I would I would highlight the importance of collaboration around the team and one of the things I would look for, especially if I'm coming into a new team, is how collaborative is the team, how well do they get around along with each other? Is there one person who just happens to be knocking the cover off the ball, but is it absolute jerk to be around right and is there another person who just works really, really hard and is always there but just hasn't gotten a break? And how, if we've got different people inside the team, dynamic, and a talk with my hands a lot that. If I have different people inside the team dynamic, then I want to understand. Okay, how can I start to create a culture of collaboration and communication and trust across this team so that everybody gets better together and you can go to the African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together. Let's go far, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go together. So that's the first thing I want to assess. The team great great take advantage of the fact that everybody's in the same room, create a culture of collaboration. Now the next thing I want to look at is how people are communicating about the things we do. Are we using the same language, or are we describing something as a cop and somebody else describes it as a hug and as the person who's holding the Cup not realize that the cup and the bug are ultimately the same thing. On one might have to handle. But if we've got communication challenges across the team,...

...inconsistency around the vocabulary that we're using across the team, then it's going to create some risk inside the business. This is where the training piece comes in. So if we start to agree on certain vocabulary that we train everybody on the vocabulary, we validate that that's the right vocabulary. I think so. First is how do we understand the team? How do we create a foster and environment collaborations that team gets better together? How do we make sure that we use the right language so that we're using that same vocabulary and there's consistency and communication? Then the next piece, depending on what I'm seeing there, it's how can we apply coaching inside the organization to help people just take each of those next progressive steps? I think too often we fall into a training trap because we think we're going to bring in a trainer who's going to go in front of the room, is going to talk about some amazing things and you're going to get a couple of really cool questions he might be ask some customers and now everybody is going to get better. Well, you know, we all have run into these meetings where things are said, things are heard and things are remembered and everybody here something a little bit different. Everybody remember something a little bit different. My experience that early career leader or new leader coming in or leader WHO's working to get better or someone who's coming into an organization to kind of get the team moving together. Then coaching is critical. And The reason why coaching is critical for me is if I can coach on a call or leader can coach on a call, they can listen to what's happening from a customer perspective, they start to hear that vocabulary, they can see how their team is reacting and then they can provide coaching just so just an additional perspective of what's happening to the person who was on the call. The most common mistake that people like me make in that environment is they turned the coaching into leading the call and they jump in and they feel like they need to insert their right perspective and all of the other things because they're magical and they're the night and shining armor and they're not that. It gets into the next piece around scale. If you feel compelled to do that on every call that you're on with your team, you are not building a scalable team because the team is now dependent on you being there each time and you're not scalable. So those are some young know and I you used list and I giving you applause because I believe the exact same thing and I was hoping you were going to get there. And when you said the word coaching, I was like yes, because I don't think we do enough coaching. I think we do very most businesses do a great job new hire training, that first on board boarding, but it's that ongoing day today, coaching. The best teams I've seen if they have a team internally, and even if it's remote, you know, getting involved to hear calls, to coach them, to give them pointers, to say here's what you did. Well, my great. Do you understand what you did? Yes, you did great. Now you can repeat that. Here's where we're going to work and here's we're going to coach and we're going to so that one your team looks at you as an asset. You are my coach versus manager. Sounds who they're going to fire me. We like coaches. We all had coaches in sports. We had coaches for you know, whatever we did, we like those people could because they were there to help us get better, challenge US versus fire us. And then the other part that I like what you said again, very few people talk about this, is creating a dependent workforce. I recorded an episode about this because I was dealing with this with a few clients talking about they thought they were doing the right thing, like you said, not necessarily. They didn't think they were the night and shining armor, but they thought that's was their job was to save the sale. So I'm going to jump in to save the sale. But what happened was everyone then turned around and was trained that you're going to come and do the sale for me, versus learning how to do it themselves. So I thought that was really important. So then off of that, because you taught we just talked about having the team internally. What are your because you also coach remotely for your client, like, how does the coaching differ or what things could we do if someone saying, well, that sounds great, I wish I had my team, but my team is around the country or they're all working at home remotely. How do I build that culture? How do I coach if they're not in front of me? I think the actually think that there are some advantages to having a remote team in this context, because you get get people a chance to just go out and do their own thing and then create an opportunity to come together. So, as leader, one of the best investments I've made...

...over the last couple of years has been putting a whiteboard behind me. We as a team can build together on a Whiteboard, wall, on video and I know that there are some whiteboarding tools that you can use in things like zoom, but I think there's something that comes out of writing, even though my handwriting is a little bit rough, there's something that comes out of writing things and drawing pictures and seeing things build right. So that's one way. One Way to do it. Another way to do it is be very deliberate about when you're going to bring the team together. Just because everybody's in a remote environment doesn't mean you can't bring them together periodically, and most large organizations will have a global sales kick up and that's a great opportunity to bring people together, engage them with other members of the organization, not just make it about the the sales team. So be deliberate about how you bring people together in the remote environment. This is how I do it my team, this last organization I was working with, it was all based in the UK. There was no other option than remote and over the course of the last eighteen months or so we've all been in some kind of remote environment where we're dealing with zoom. The thing that I would do, because I couldn't see all of the nonverbal feedback other than some of the eye contact and the voice and again I use my hands. I would everybody on my team knew that there was kind of a code, sort of speak that would give me an opportunity to ask whatever question or make a comment, and at some point in the call, wherever it was, they would say hey, Mike, you've been kind of quiet, or do you have any do you have any questions? Is there anything we missed? Any one of those things, whatever felt comfortable to them. I had to, as the leader, not engage in the discussion up until that point because if I started engaging in the conversation before that point I could disrupt their workflow, describe disrupt their train of thought disrupt the way that they're navigating the call. So I actually think things like zoom make it much easier, to much more convenient, excuse me, to provide coaching opportunities. The other thing I would do is at the end of the call we'd always have fifteen minutes to debrief. Now sometimes we got really busy and calls we're going back to back, so we'd have to push some of those debriefs on. But after the client drops off you can go through and do a debrief on the call, which it gets into the wood. What did you think? What would you know? What? What did you like? What would you have done differently? And then I'll go through and I'll share my notes and I'll say I'll usually do something like, when you ask this question, what was the desired impact, or something to that effect, or I'll just say, hey, that was an awesome call, and we navigate it that pretty well. So there's a couple ways to do the virtual thing. I think there's some danger in, and this might be just me being the old get off my lawn kind of dude, but this is this. There's some danger in the recorded after the fact coaching as like one of the cool things about playing sports is those coaches could tell us what they were seeing, sometimes yell at us, but whatever way that they were prodding us, they could say in the moment and it was so close to the mistake that we made. When we start doing these things in recorded a synchronous environments, there's so much time and space between when the behavior happened and when the follow up happened or the remdiation or the coaching or the questions that the impact isn't a strong so that's one of the concerns I've got about some of these asynchronous coaching tools that are out there that a lot of people are getting excited about. But that may just be me. No, no, I no, not at all. So I agree. I've always trained, you know, through my years. I would say don't let an I you know, like an hour or two go by because it's still sort of fresh. But if I said do you might remember the call you just had with Glenn about this issue, it's still going to be sort of fresh and I'll say yeah, okay, and then even if you had the ability to play the call for them, they're oh, okay, if it's tomorrow and that they've already made. So many other so many other things have happened. It's a gauntlong distant memory. Now again, if you do have the recorded call, that's fine. You can both listen to the call and it's both objective and you can go through your process. But if it unless it's recorded, but even then so many things have gone on. But what I also liked about what you said, and it's a great lesson for everyone, listening the present for your team doesn't mean you have to be the leader of the call. Doesn't mean you have to. I sit in the background on calls and then I'll listen. But what also I liked was you had time for a debrief and if you listened folks, Michaels did was he didn't tell them what he thought.

He asked them first what they thought. Right. So again a great training tip is always asking someone how did you think? You did? What did you like? What didn't you like? Now, if they didn't like something, it probably is something you didn't like either. You know you're on the same page, but if not, it's okay. There I always say, if you ask the question first and they say well, Mike, here's what I thought. Could you help me. They're sticking their hands out to you, opening up and saying, can you help me? If you come at them and say let me tell you what I heard, they immediately go into defense mode, justification mode, and then nothing gets solved. So I really folks, if you have picked up anything, making sure that your present. Let your team run the call, ask them what they thought and then wait till they ask you. or in your structure, recall you're the last person to offer your in your feedback, so that we can move forward. That allows you to be a coach, as you said, and help letting them learn to solve their own problems is really key. Especially to your point about scaling. I think that's that's phenomenal, phenomenal advice. So Great. So Um, I have one last question and then we'll get into our final few questions that I ask at the end of every episode. Briefly, there there's always been in our attention between marketing and sales, right, so sales blames marketing, marketing blame sales. I think the meaning on your marketing department is key for sales success and marketing leaning on the sales team to find out what are what are those questions that people are asking or where are those hurdles, or why are people coming to US versus our competitors? Only lends more real value to what you're pushing out into the mark from a marketing perspective. In your experience when you go into a team, right, so you've just worked with this Organization for a year, eighteen months, where their conversations with the marketing team or bringing what you saw or you know, how did you maneuver that, that alliance? So I actually took on marketing. Is Part of my remit as the crow and and failed. And one of the one of the ways that I failed there is I didn't create strong enough alignment across the organization, both in the hiring process and the kind of the the tone and the and the alignment piece where everybody understood we're all on the same team, we all have the same domain in our email address, we all what are the same logo on our TSHIRTS, like we're all in this together. So, given that we're all in this together, we're all moving toward the same objective, let's do what we can to make sure that we accelerate learning so that we can have the impact we need to have. So I actually I failed on that over the over the last the last twelve months. What I can do is talk about better experiences, though. Better experience it's when it's when you are working hand in hand with each other, there's a high level of communication and trust. The person on the marketing size does their job really they know their business. They know how to do marketing. I know how to do sales, sort of. My VP of sales knows how to sell and my team knows how to sell. The VBIA marketing knows how to market. I trust that people know their jobs. As we go through they're going to be different things that will come up where if there's tension, the reason why there's tension is because of some either some kind of confusion. Maybe there's confusion about the approach or where we're going at, who we're going after inside the market or things that have shifted or change in the market. And the confusion could be on my side from a sales perspective or on their side from a marketing perspective, but ultimately the tensions created by some kind of confusion. Another reason the tension could be created is there might be confusion around what matters, what are, what's the actual number that we're moving toward? Are we more focused on leads that are generated, where we more focused on revenue that is generated? If we're more focused on leads because there are some value in that number, then okay, let's focus on that. If we're more focused on revenue, let's make sure that that the leads are actually converting and contributing to the revenue. So an alignment relative to objective, so that there's not a level of confusion between the two, said to organizations, even if they're inside the organization, is right stremely important. And for whatever reason we create and I don't know why, I really I struggle with the will why this...

...continues to happen, but it continues to happen. But for whatever reason we create this tension because we tend to miss aaligne. Objectives and measure things there aren't necessarily contributing or converting to the thing that we're moving toward. And the reason why, I think, the primary reason why we do it, even though I said I don't know why. Thinking primary reason is we don't ask ourselves the question about what really matters, like what's our focus, what's our actual objective, what's our in door star. What are we moving toward? Why are we moving toward it? How can we get there? How will we measure to determine are we actually moving toward it and create this alignment inside the organization? So I this oil and water challenge between sales and marketing. I think comes down to confusion. I think it comes down to misalignment on goals and objectives. I think it comes down to a lack of trust and I think it comes down to, in some cases, the agenda of the person putting themselves before the organization rather than putting the organization first. Okay, yeah, I agree, and I think I struggle with that as well. Why it exists? Because when it's worked well, where when marketing comes to you and says, okay, here's our message that we were pushing out, is it connecting what or what are what are you hearing from your prospects when you know, as I said, why are they talking to US versus their competitor? What's our difference? Or from sales saying we'RE NOT DIFFERENT ENOUGH? We're not. We're not doubling down. Our customers are asking about this and we have nothing in our marketing that talks about this. So I'm winging it. I I think to your point is everyone's one not talking enough. And too, I think your point was is the objective. You know, if you're thinking as a salesperson, I need leads, I need people, I need hand raisers, and the marketing is doing, yes, a little about that, but they're doing a longer pipeline type of marketing and funnel, and you know you want people who want to buy right now and some of their interests are leads are higher funnel, and so there's that frustration where you're not giving me enough things to sell and marketing saying, well, I'm the ones I'm giving you. You're not selling, just you know, and it's becomes this fight when truly they're two sides of one coin. Marketing need sales, sales needs marketing and I wish they could be better aligned. Think just to add a couple of more points, and you said be brief in the it's one of those cential we got just jump you jump right into there is good stuff, there's there's a so to think of the customer journey discussion that you just went through. You said, look, everybody is there. They may be at the initial phase of not even realizing that a problem exists. And it's so not only do they not know that a problem are that your organization exists, they don't know that they actually have the problem, but there's some content that creates a sense that a problem exists and now all of a sudden the sales rep is contacting them immediately asking them about I can remire and decisionmaking process and all of those other things. They were not meeting the wrap, the individual is not meeting the individual on the other side where they are. And if we think about what marketing and sales do really well, as a sales professional, I should be able to meet one on one with people and maybe even one on one with groups of people, but I should be able to be in a room, read the room, have a conversation, get be really good at getting feedback from that conversation and reacting to those feedback loops because I can adapt and iterate in real time based on the information that's coming at me. On the marketing side of things, even though the data continues to get better and there's a quicker speed to impact or speed to those feedback loops. Remember, marketing doesn't ever see the customer directly. They're right. At least from what I understand, they're mainly communicating out to large groups of people who, in a lot of cases they'll talk about personas in these are fictional characters that align with a specific Avatar of who we're selling to. On the sale side, we're actually dealing with real people. So, if we think about it, marketing has a really difficult job to compel people to take a certain amount of action where somebody else is in the room. On the sales side we have the opportunity to respond and react to people in the room. If we're struggling with communication, imagine how much value we could get by working with our partners on the marketing side to get an understanding of how they communicate when people aren't in the room so that we can ask better questions when people are in the room and start to see people not and engage and provide that feedback. This is an area where I think both of them can really come together and we can learn from each other. Now, on the marketing...

...side we should also be able to say, look, as you're out there engaging with the rep when you bring these things up, how are people responding? How some racing. Are People leaning in? If they're not leaning in, maybe we don't want to talk about that as much in all of this stuff that we're spending money on. So that these the alignment is so important. When it works, when there's this partnership, and there are a couple of times I've worked with a couple of amazing marketing professionals where there spend that alignment, it's magical when it works. Oh No, I agree. We in our agency. We talked about it all the time. Is Myself and the people who are selling have meetings with the marketing team. In the marketing team will say, what questions did they ask you? What topics did they start asking you about? So if they start the conversation, how are you different than other agencies? Well then we as marketers need to push that out. What stuck with them? Was it the fact that we are smaller or we are customized or we do x? Great, because if not, marketing, as you said, is guessing, throwing a wide net hoping that something's going to connect. But if you came back from sales and said the last three people talked about they are having this issue, marketing should say, Oh, let's go point come up to a way where when we talk about that, we have a solution in someone goes, Oh, I have that problem. They have a solution. As you said, it draws them in. But without that information there are these misses and frustrations because then the blame game comes because we didn't talk to anyone. We just said well, marketing doesn't know what they're doing and then sales isn't doing this. Versus Collaboration, I think more collaboration in those those conversations, when you have the conversation saying if I talk to sales, I'm going to get really good stuff, it's going to make my marketing better, and then the salespeople understand what marketing does and maybe create something specifically for that salesperson. They feel engaged, that these folks are helping me, they're a resource, not an enemy. Yeah, yeah, we're all in this together. I think that's the thing. Like, we're all in this together. If you're part of the organization solving a really important problem in the market place for specific set of customers, you're all in this thing together. You're all working toward the same thing. Start running the same thing. Love it, love it, love it, love it all right. That's a great place to sort of wind down here. So, first off, my love the fact that you're here, your passion. I love these because I try to take time and you what you were just saying got me fired up and so great value for the audience today. I think they're going to get a lot out of it. So as we wind down every episode, I usually ask three or four questions. I call them the one which is just whatever one word POPs into your head. Their random questions have nothing to do with anything that we were just talking about, maybe, but I asked them, and so let's just jump right in. So what is one thing that you are reading, listening to or watching that is in spy hearing you, that you would want to share with the audience? I mean, I'm reading the book peak mind right now and both reading and listening, and I don't have the author right in front of me, but we'll get it and we'll put it into the show. This you'll know. Just listening to the the perspective this author has around neuroscience and impact on attention is helping, is inspiring me to be more present when I think I'm present. I'm one of those people who thinks I can watch a football game and still have a conversation at the same time. And and then I will miss the the gorilla that walks through the kids passing the basketball back and forth to each other. Right. So, like there's this I believe that I'm very attentive and then all right up until the point that I'm not. So if that is that that that is that's what I'm digging into right now. That is inspired me to get better at being present and being where my feet are. That trude. That's spooky, because when I did my year end wrap up, one of the words that I said for two thousand and twenty two is presents, you know, and when you said being present, and I always say be present where your feet are, so aligned. Love it. Love it, love it. What is one place in the world that you haven't traveled to that you would like to travel, assuming we get rid of all of these travel bands? Where would you like to go? Singapore? Singapore,...

I've never been Ashe Pack and love to that. Yeah, they're there. That, that's that's one of those is on my checklist. Japan, all of that, whole areas online, but Singapore, I've heard. I've had a my brother went there and he said phenomenal, phenomenal. What is one piece of advice that you received from someone that really helped you on your journey? Retired Colonel Chuck sloter said leaders provide guidance, direction and motivation. And when I think about it I think of guidance, the the kind of the the engagement, the list in order to provide guidance to someone, you have to be there, listen, engage and then you can share and provide some kind of perspective. So they provide guidance, they provide direction, they know where to point the light. Like we're we can get so distracted and move around and around in circles and leaders can help us point the light, or we as leaders should help point the directional light for the organization. So direction and then motivation, having helping people understand how the things that they're working on align with the things that are important to them so that when things get rough, they can stay the course, maintain the level of commitment and just continue to move forward. Because if all of the stuff was easy, it everybody would be doing it and it the hard work is just part of the process. So, colonel trucks looter, leaders provide guidance, direction and motivation you more. If I took your family, friends, close people who know you, put them in a room and said describe you with one word, what would that one word that they would use? Passionate. I would think that's a pretty good after just being on the thing with you here for a while, I would say passion is definitely something I would say. All right, final question. We've talked about a lot of things here and again, jam packed with great, great, great content. If you hoped that the audience, people listening took one thing away from everything that you shared today, just one what would that one thing be? Everything that we talked about focused around actually going out and doing work, not thinking about doing work, not not going around and round in circles and talking about all of the things we could do. It's focusing on going out and doing something. So, as a leader WHO's coaching your team, join calls, that's doing work, listen, that's doing work. Engage when appropriate. It's doing work. Provide feedback. That's doing work. Going through the data that we started with. That's doing work. You've got to go out there and do the work, not just think about the work or talk about the work. You've got to go do the work and I love that. That that is great. That is that is great and I could not agree more. Hard work, work in general. That's the deciding that, that's the differentiator and I appreciate that. So, Mike again, thank you so much for being here. This was a great conversation. So tell everyone how they can connect with you. Tell them about your podcast, tell them about you know where. I'll link everything in the show notes, but I want to hear it from you. I've listened to some of your episodes. Really great stuff. So tell people how they can connect with you. Thank you. The best place to find out about what we're working on from a business is catalyst, salecom, Catalis, cellcom, and you should be able to link out to all of the social pieces. The Social Media Area where I'm most active is twitter, Simmons, underscore M and I'm also getting back into linkedin. I've been on a milk carton, so to speak, over the course of the last couple of the last couple of months from a social media perspective. Those are the best places to to interact. Don't send me an email. Email is where things just go to die, right, but interact on twitter, linkedin really good places and then always catalysts. Llcom Glenn, this has been absolutely awesome. Thank you very much for having none. I ask what your podcast? What your podcast? Oh sorry, thank you. The podcast is find my catalyst. It is just recently been rebranded. It was the catalyst so podcast. We took the words sale out just because I thought we could go to a much broader audience and absolutely gut of the podcast is helping people overcome this challenge that they have relative to confidence and just be able to take that next step relative to doing the work, find that catalyst that gives them the Nug to help...

...them do the work and I bring people on who either catalyst in my life, catalyst for me based on what I've heard or seen, or catalyst in others lives that help inspire them to take that next step through practical acts execution the work. Not Talking about theory and ideas around how this stuff should work, but people have actually experienced it. So that's the find my catalyst. All right. So so listen, folks, please connect with Mike. As you listened all you know the goal. Seems like this is great alignment because both of our podcasts are aligned to provide tactical, strategic things that you can do. Now, I think about but do but if you listen to everything Mike talked about today, it was all about action. It was what you could do. So listen to this over and over and over again. Share it out with your team. Please connect with Mike. Valuable. His information is great a recommended highly. It'll bring you great, great values. So again, Mike, Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate your time and, folks, as you know, at the end of every episode I tell you don't forget to subscribe to the podcast out on apple or, if you're an android user, on spotify, you can jump over to the Youtube Channel to watch Mike and I both. Please make sure you share it out. I'm sure there's a few people in your network that could benefit from what Mike said. It's really valuable. Again, I know there's a lot of places for you to consume content, but the fact that you shared time with Mike and me means the world as well. And, as I say at the end of every episode, you're in charge, but if you ever feel like well, now, what what do I do next? Well, we're here weekly to provide you tip, strategies and hopefully, if you laughs, to make you both better professionally and personally. So again, thank you so much. Look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Mike, Again, great meeting you. Thank you so much. Thank you for all the value you brought to the audience today. Thank you.

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