"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch
"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch

Episode 123 · 1 week ago

What You Get Wrong About Sales with Mike Simmons


Sales is a key focus for many businesses. Everyone has a strategy and when it does not work we reach out to others for help. Hoping there is a magic bullet that we are missing. How do you overcome the "debt" of bad habits?

My guest, Mike Simmons, founder of Catalyst Sales shares his strategies to unlock your process in order to make it easy for your team and for your customers.

An exciting, tactical conversation. Take notes!!!

Enjoy and don't forget to subscribe and share. 

About Mike Simmons

More than 25 years of operations, consulting, sales and sales leadership experience, 22 in the EdTech/enablement technology space, 3 in cybersecurity. Life long learner, creative, analytical, and driven to achieve results. Mike has built, lead, and optimized sales organizations leveraging both direct and indirect teams. Husband, father, and aspiring golfer.







About Glenn Pasch:

"Everyone finds themselves in charge at some point in their lives. Yet many of us lack the skills to generate consistent results. My goal is to help you learn the skills to adapt and grow in your personal and business life.”

Glenn Pasch is CEO of PCG Digital, a full service digital marketing agency that specializes in helping businesses create and deliver customers raving, recommending & returning for more. He is author of 2 books including "The Power of Connected Marketing" and has spoken and educated audiences throughout the US and internationally.

Let’s Connect:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glennpasch/

Personal Website http://glennpasch.com/

Company website: https://pcgdigital.com/

Support for this episode comes from PCGdigital. It is anywhere from difficult to impossible to manage every aspect of thechanging digital landscape. Rather than trying to do it yourself, why not leaveit to an award winning team of Digital Marketing Specialists who have mastered at allconnect to your message with more potential customers with PCG digital? Go to PCGdigitalcom for more information. For those of you who are in charge of ateam, could be the whole business or just an individual department, one ofthe biggest questions I'm asked all the time is how do I help their performance, meaning what do I need to do every single day to help my teamimprove? Is it the process? Is it refining the process? Is itcoaching? Is it listening, mentoring, motivating? And it's probably all ofthe above, but many people ask, can you give me some tactical advice, some tactical strategies? Well, that's why I brought Mike Simmons on thepodcast today. He is the founder of catalyst sale and that's what he does. He helps organizations with these struggles. He helps refine processes, making surethat its streamline, getting rid of outdated pieces of the process, that areno longer working, as well as helping those in the position to coach anddevelop team build those skills. He's also the host of a very popular podcastcalled finding your catalyst, where it's helping people move forward. As he says, actions cause results. That's what I always say, and if you're notreally putting in the work, well then you can't expect the results that youwant. So I'm really excited for you to hear our conversation. Might sharesome very tactical things that you can apply today to help your team improve.So let's dive into today's episode of you're in charge now what with Mike Simmons, founder of Catalyst Sale. Okay, Mike, so thank you so muchfor being here. I'm always excited when previous guests recommend people to me andsay you really need to talk to this person, especially when it comes tosales, and I think every business sales is the hurdle, struggle focus inorder to be successful and I think a lot of people get it wrong.So that's where I want to start. You've had a long career building companiesand now you're working with companies to help them with the specific issue. Soif someone's bringing you in to say help me with sales. Where are theygoing wrong? Thinking that it will happen really, really fast, like there'sthis magic bullet, this kind of shortcut, that we're going to be able tocome in and all of a sudden, magically, we're going to increase salessignificantly because there's some trick that you is the business owner, use,the founder. You is the leadership team inside the organization. Just have notbeen able to figure out, even as you've gone through a couple of differentleaders in the business. You think there's always something better. It's kind oflike the grass is always greener. There's somebody else has figured it out.It's kind of like health and fitness, when you look at the person whois just an amazing shape or not on the cover of a magazine. Willthey've figured it out. I just need to do what they did. Youdon't have their genes. You've have this technical debt that you've created over along period of time. Yet you believe that just because you have a conversationwith them or you bring them into your organization, all of a sudden magicis going to happen. I think that is the biggest challenge and unfortunately,people like me tend to sell that challenge right. Okay, so so yousaid two things that I want to make sure our audience really and I wantto pick your brain on it. One is that sense of time. Right. It is that consistency over time. I just was recording something about the, you know, end of the year, and I said momentum and compound interest. You know, building that momentum takes time. But before we getto that, you said something and I it just struck me as there itis. It's that that idea of this debt that you've built up of eitherbad habits or, in the sense of a business, maybe a patchwork ofideas or just there's no consistency or maybe there's no process or no accountability.So you have to unravel this dead it seems like, before you move forward. Is it? Did I hear that correctly? You absolutely know that andmany times people forget about it because you just keep you think of you thinkof these paintings that they're discovering in in...

...garage sales, where it just getspaint and layer of paint, than another layer of paint, than another layerof paint and another layer of paint. Everybody forgets what the first layer ofpaint was. How do we get here? Right this? You go through thisprocess of unraveling, asking some really deliberate, difficult questions, in somecases both internally and externally, internally inside your organization, because you've got peoplewho will remember it, and a lot of times people will remember the goodand they'll forget your different points and everybody's perspective of what happened is going tobe slightly different. We also forget to go out and have those same conversationswith existing customers, with customers that we've lost, with customers that we werenot able to win. So if we don't go through the pros us,how can we expect to get better unless we just happen to get lucky,and sometimes people get lucky right, right. But so it sounds like again,what I'm hearing is we all have a problem with just adding on andit becomes this Frankenstein Monster. You know, I've worked with a few clients whereI've looked in there crm, you know, their management tool, andyou almost could see when they brought in a trainer, because someone brought theirstyle or their process in and lay and no one did what I called everdid a spring cleaning and went back and just said, are we even usingthis? And so you just keep layering it on. So how does onedo that? Do we have to go back to the core and say reallygo back to the basics of well, what are we trying to accomplish?How do we want to handle our customers? What do we want to say,and then see take that, take that work to go through every singlestep and say does this match to what we want? If not, getrid of it. Is it that Labor intensive? I think the questions aresimple enough that it's not that labor intensive and it doesn't need to take along time. This doesn't need to be a six month or eighteen months wewild or you like refinishing a house. We don't have to do that.It's it's saying, okay, here's an area that we want to focus on. Let's focus on this first. Let's accomplish that and move things forward,and I think the the questions that you ask are really important. They comearound some basic who, what, why? where? When type questions. Whatproblem really solving? Who Cares about that problem? Why does the problempersist? Why do they need to solve that problem and by asking those questionsacross the organization you can create better alignment. And when you ask those simple questions, in my experience what you'll find out is there are different perspectives thatpeople have across the organization that can create this misalignment and start to create frictionwhere it was never intended to exist, and it's really because we're not goingback and revisiting those basic items. Now the risk is someone's listening to thisand they're saying, wow, that sounds like a lot of work, it'sgoing to take a lot of time. I have to move forward. Ineed to keep the business moving. Keep the business moving. You've got tokeep the business moving. You can still do this kind of work in parallel. Now that's crm discussion that you're talking about, where there's this major springcleaning overhaul. Those are nightmare type activities. You don't want to have your revenueteam, your sales team going through and doing it. You want tohave somebody else take care of it. Where the impact on the new customeracquisition side of the business or the success side of the business, whichever areaor your focused on, or however you have your team segmented. You're nothaving those people who are generating revenue going back and doing the clean up.There's technical ways that you can go through right, create the cleanup and justask those basic questions. So we have this data, we created this field. What are we using it for? Right? Does it matter? Howis it impacting decision as we make? If it's, if we're not usingit, it doesn't matter. It doesn't impact decisions. Let's eliminate it andsimplify what we're working on so that we can move a lot faster as leadersin an organization, as organization. So going through the shortcut is actually goingthrough all of the steps and not skipping those steps, because if you skipthe steps, you you take on risk, and everybody is okay with taking outa little bit of risk. Right. Well, but so so again,when I love what they you keep saying it doesn't take a lot oftime, and that is a fear of people and that's why I think theykeep layering things on. Is All right, forget, forget what we did before. We have a brand new widgety thing and a new process, andhere's our new process until the next new process comes in. But what Ilike about this and audience. Two things that Mike said. One is askingthe stakeholders, the people who are actually...

...in the forefront, at the frontline, are you using this? Yes or no? Is this helpful?Yes or no, and then allowing someone else to do that clean up.We don't want to take the revenue producers time up with something that is notaligned with what they should be doing, which is generating revenue. So Ireally, really like that idea of really getting team buying, allowing people tosay, Oh, yeah, we don't use that, and having the thethe strength to be able to remove that, to put your people in a positionto continue to do their work in a streamline, more efficient, effectiveway of doing things. Yeah, that's what they're there for, right.What's the what's the job that they're responsible for? And then if you andthink about it, if you fall into the trap and but I wish Ihad someone like you, to Finn to follow me around at summarize points,because you've you've taken many more words and bring them down into a fewer words. There's this the vicious cycle you get into when you constantly go through andrearrange the deck chairs around the titanic, or whatever it is whatever metaphor youwant to use, and they know I tend to bounce around on these.But this process that you go through every time you do it, you takepeople away from their core job, which is either generating demand or advancing developingpipeline from a revenue team perspective, and they might do that with new customersor with existing customers. However, your business is the structure. When youtake them out of that operation and you create these speed bumps that they haveto work on that are more operationally oriented administratively oriented, then you delay thespeed to impact that they'll have on their core role and inevitably will end uphappening. You. You'll see the impact and pipeline two, three, dependingon sales cycles, right whatever, you'll see it at some point in thefuture and then the question will come up, why is so and so behind?And then we forget we had so and so go through and do thisright cleaning exercise. So it be be smart with the way that you leverageresources and that everybody can can afford to bring in other people. What Iwould suggest, though, is can you really afford to have your high paidprofessionals that are out there generating revenue doing this kind of work that you couldbring in. Yes, exactly, you can bring someone. Well, theother thing that I always say to people, as you've been in this position fora year or two, whatever, you know, you've been through usingthis cycle for a while. It does now the all be cleaned up tomorrow, you know, over you could set a time frame and table will adjustthis a little bit and allow people to do this. But I but Ilike that because also the fact of keeping the cheap, you know, constantlychanging, as you said, rearranging the debt chairs. No one gets achance to really sink their teeth into a process and do it to see whatworks or doesn't work, because every thirty days but we have a new idea. Mike went to a conference, came back with a new idea, heread a book, we have a new idea, and so everyone just noone really wants to dive in and learn something, to into much depth,because who knows, forty five days from now we might be doing something completelydifferent. So let me poke, though. Let's pivot a little bit then,so to let's talk about you know, we talked right there about process andstructuring there, but you also mentioned something early on, about time everyonethinks it's going to happen. Do you see that the same with hiring ofsalespeople, the expectations of performance? I spoke with someone else, Ryan Dowdy, who was a few episodes ago, talking about we're inpatient with new salespeople. We get frustrated if they're not selling today and again, depending on yoursales cycle, the product, whatever it is. How do you do yousee that frustration as well, or impatience where we almost get rid of peoplebefore they're really ready to performer, as you said, hit that really thresholdof performance and a lot of times the impatience it can either be driven byso there's something so yes, I see it and in some instances it's warrantedand at the same time we have to be realistic about the way that weevaluate data in order to be able to make effective to decisions when it comesto making a making a change, going through the process of now hire,replacing that wrap, or do we add additional coaching or training? What kindof support resources that we put in place to help accelerate the speed to rampor speed to on boarding? If they're the first wrap or maybe even thefifth rep that you've hired inside and organization.

HMM, over a period of time, it's probably unlikely that you have a consistent model that you can goback to to say this is exactly how a rep should be on boarded andshould go through the ramping process. Then this is where they should be ata certain period of time. Right happens is folks go to a conference orthey read a book and they say your account of senior account executive should rampup within a three month period. Well, in what operating environment, based onwhat experience? What stage is that company are? We are we earlystage, pre product mark of prerevenue head the ramp time is going to bea heck of a lot longer. prerevenue. That first rap is probably augmenting thefounder inside the business. Later on down the road, when you've gota couple hundred reps inside and organization, you've got specialized teams, you cankind of plug and play people around, then your speed the ramp is isgoing to be significantly more predictable than the next set of questions I might wantto ask our are we bringing in someone from a new industry into our industrybecause we believe that they may help us innovate. That new oxygen. NewBlood brings new oxygen. They may have a different way of doing things.So now their ramp time is going to be a little bit slower because they'renot as familiar with our space. Or am I bringing someone in who wasselling the same thing? They were selling fords at a dealership in Mapor Villeleannoy and now I'm moving them to fords in you know, selling forwards andaims Iowa or some rights like that. That's going to be the expectations aregoing to be a bit different. And the way that I would summarize thatas context matters. If we're not going through and looking at things inappropriate context, asking the right questions, identifying where applying spots are, we might makeour patients might disappear right or reduce or we might make decisions that are alittle bit quicker without complete information and we might get ourselves into a situation wherewe're constantly just putting plugging new widgets into the machine hoping to get some otherresult, when we're not actually giving the giving our team time or our organizationtime or customer based time to actually get really good feedback to determine what's ourwhat's our timeline, not what the market says our timeline should be or whatothers say our timeline. What's our actual timeline in center of business. Isay I love that because that's really clear to me and I'm hoping the audience, you know, understood that, because there's so many variables and one ofthe variables that you talked about that I never really thought of in that way. But it makes sense. If you know, if you if you're juststarting out and you just have a few people and that were salespeople, youdon't have enough data or run way to really understand what your sale cycle is, you know, so you're still trying to figure out. Do I callthem? Do a email them? Do I go in front of them?Do I not? All of those variables, you know. Number two would bethat idea of are you? Are you even known in your industry?Right? So, if you're mature enough where marketing has the ability to createthe awareness, so to your example, if I sold forwards and I gosomewhere else and I sell for I understand the product. Now I need tounderstand the you know, audience, the type of people. Okay, butat least I know the product, but if all of a sudden it's abrand new product, no one's heard of it before, you're not going toget in the door and get those presentations. So that might be a longer runwayversus no, I'm an established fortune five hundred company. People know whowe are. We've been doing it for ten years. Here's our system and, as you said, we have data that we can say, here's ouraverage employee, here's our average run, here are the mile markers. Thatmakes complete sense. I don't think a lot of people think that way.I think they all think we're a mature business and we have a figured outand we don't give people enough runway. What are the you'd mentioned one ofthe companies I work for. Company was Safari Books Online. We were referredto ourselves safari. Started working there in about two thousand and eight. TwoThousand and two thousand and eight. One of the most common things responses thatwould I would get when I said I started working for this company called Safari, the web browser, right, but and safari books on. So yousell books about going to Africa and going...

...out on Safari. Like there's justall of this confusion. That was right. and Yo. Once people started toconnect the dots between safari and O'Reilly be media and Pierson Technology Group,wortort of the joint venture partners who started this business, then there was anokay, now, I understand, but yet there our expectation, the expectationthat I had not only of myself as it started there as an individual contributor, but as we brought reps on, is it's very different to sell safarithat it was to sell skill soft, because skill soft in the D textspace, everybody knew who they were. They've gone through this process of acquiringa right smart force. So yeah, it just it's a sometimes we losesight of it because we're so close to our business that we just and we'retalking about it all the time. We just think everybody knows about it rightand at that. That's a great point. I have a very dear friend.He's the owner of a very large advertising and website firm and he alwaysjokes, you know, I have all of these clients, you know,his few thousand clients, and he says, I think people know who I am, but then I'll go to a large conference, I'll introduce myself andI'll say hi, I'm the owner of X Y Z company and people lookand go, well, what do you do? And he goes all ofa sudden very humbling to think that not everyone does know who you are.So you have to make sure that you're constantly doing, as you said,that marking, that branding expanding so there isn't any confusion in that market place. So so, building off of what you said briefly in that when wewere talking about time, you said resources for the individual, so that mybrain immediately went to training and development of these groups. So when you've builtteams, and I think this is a strong will for many, many peoplewho are in the position of leading teams, one is do they have a processto train individuals ongoing, not just new higher have they ever been taughthow to train? So if somebody was sitting in front of you and saysI have a team and you know I'm responsible for their performance, so it'stwo parts. One is, what are your thoughts on what I should bedoing with them daily to help them six EED, let's assume they're inside whereI can see what they're doing. And then number two is how do Iscale that, like if I need to grow this team. What are thingsI should be thinking about. So let's start with the first piece. Theirdaytoday. How would you and your experience either, have led your team developthem, to make them better? How did you help them grow? Bigthing, especially when you're in your having a team that's all in the samelocation as really powerful. You can go in a room where there's a whiteboard and you can start drawing some things up on the white board and itwhen you start doing that, you ideally you're getting people around the table orin the room starting to nod and starting to contribute and there's this high levelof engagement where we're learning from each other. So one of the advantages of havinga team that's in the same location is you get this. You cantake advantage of the opportunity of everybody learning together and getting better together, becausethey can hear the reps that other people are going through, they hear otherpeople on the phone, they can talk about challenges that they're running into.So I would I would highlight the importance of collaboration around the team and oneof the things I would look for, especially if I'm coming into a newteam, is how collaborative is the team, how well do they get around alongwith each other? Is there one person who just happens to be knockingthe cover off the ball, but is it absolute jerk to be around rightand is there another person who just works really, really hard and is alwaysthere but just hasn't gotten a break? And how, if we've got differentpeople inside the team, dynamic, and a talk with my hands a lotthat. If I have different people inside the team dynamic, then I wantto understand. Okay, how can I start to create a culture of collaborationand communication and trust across this team so that everybody gets better together and youcan go to the African proverb, if you want to go fast, goalone, if you want to go far, go together. Let's go far,let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go together. Sothat's the first thing I want to assess. The team great great take advantage ofthe fact that everybody's in the same room, create a culture of collaboration. Now the next thing I want to look at is how people are communicatingabout the things we do. Are we using the same language, or arewe describing something as a cop and somebody else describes it as a hug andas the person who's holding the Cup not realize that the cup and the bugare ultimately the same thing. On one might have to handle. But ifwe've got communication challenges across the team,...

...inconsistency around the vocabulary that we're usingacross the team, then it's going to create some risk inside the business.This is where the training piece comes in. So if we start to agree oncertain vocabulary that we train everybody on the vocabulary, we validate that that'sthe right vocabulary. I think so. First is how do we understand theteam? How do we create a foster and environment collaborations that team gets bettertogether? How do we make sure that we use the right language so thatwe're using that same vocabulary and there's consistency and communication? Then the next piece, depending on what I'm seeing there, it's how can we apply coaching insidethe organization to help people just take each of those next progressive steps? Ithink too often we fall into a training trap because we think we're going tobring in a trainer who's going to go in front of the room, isgoing to talk about some amazing things and you're going to get a couple ofreally cool questions he might be ask some customers and now everybody is going toget better. Well, you know, we all have run into these meetingswhere things are said, things are heard and things are remembered and everybody heresomething a little bit different. Everybody remember something a little bit different. Myexperience that early career leader or new leader coming in or leader WHO's working toget better or someone who's coming into an organization to kind of get the teammoving together. Then coaching is critical. And The reason why coaching is criticalfor me is if I can coach on a call or leader can coach ona call, they can listen to what's happening from a customer perspective, theystart to hear that vocabulary, they can see how their team is reacting andthen they can provide coaching just so just an additional perspective of what's happening tothe person who was on the call. The most common mistake that people likeme make in that environment is they turned the coaching into leading the call andthey jump in and they feel like they need to insert their right perspective andall of the other things because they're magical and they're the night and shining armorand they're not that. It gets into the next piece around scale. Ifyou feel compelled to do that on every call that you're on with your team, you are not building a scalable team because the team is now dependent onyou being there each time and you're not scalable. So those are some youngknow and I you used list and I giving you applause because I believe theexact same thing and I was hoping you were going to get there. Andwhen you said the word coaching, I was like yes, because I don'tthink we do enough coaching. I think we do very most businesses do agreat job new hire training, that first on board boarding, but it's thatongoing day today, coaching. The best teams I've seen if they have ateam internally, and even if it's remote, you know, getting involved to hearcalls, to coach them, to give them pointers, to say here'swhat you did. Well, my great. Do you understand what you did?Yes, you did great. Now you can repeat that. Here's wherewe're going to work and here's we're going to coach and we're going to sothat one your team looks at you as an asset. You are my coachversus manager. Sounds who they're going to fire me. We like coaches.We all had coaches in sports. We had coaches for you know, whateverwe did, we like those people could because they were there to help usget better, challenge US versus fire us. And then the other part that Ilike what you said again, very few people talk about this, iscreating a dependent workforce. I recorded an episode about this because I was dealingwith this with a few clients talking about they thought they were doing the rightthing, like you said, not necessarily. They didn't think they were the nightand shining armor, but they thought that's was their job was to savethe sale. So I'm going to jump in to save the sale. Butwhat happened was everyone then turned around and was trained that you're going to comeand do the sale for me, versus learning how to do it themselves.So I thought that was really important. So then off of that, becauseyou taught we just talked about having the team internally. What are your becauseyou also coach remotely for your client, like, how does the coaching differor what things could we do if someone saying, well, that sounds great, I wish I had my team, but my team is around the countryor they're all working at home remotely. How do I build that culture?How do I coach if they're not in front of me? I think theactually think that there are some advantages to having a remote team in this context, because you get get people a chance to just go out and do theirown thing and then create an opportunity to come together. So, as leader, one of the best investments I've made...

...over the last couple of years hasbeen putting a whiteboard behind me. We as a team can build together ona Whiteboard, wall, on video and I know that there are some whiteboardingtools that you can use in things like zoom, but I think there's somethingthat comes out of writing, even though my handwriting is a little bit rough, there's something that comes out of writing things and drawing pictures and seeing thingsbuild right. So that's one way. One Way to do it. Anotherway to do it is be very deliberate about when you're going to bring theteam together. Just because everybody's in a remote environment doesn't mean you can't bringthem together periodically, and most large organizations will have a global sales kick upand that's a great opportunity to bring people together, engage them with other membersof the organization, not just make it about the the sales team. Sobe deliberate about how you bring people together in the remote environment. This ishow I do it my team, this last organization I was working with,it was all based in the UK. There was no other option than remoteand over the course of the last eighteen months or so we've all been insome kind of remote environment where we're dealing with zoom. The thing that Iwould do, because I couldn't see all of the nonverbal feedback other than someof the eye contact and the voice and again I use my hands. Iwould everybody on my team knew that there was kind of a code, sortof speak that would give me an opportunity to ask whatever question or make acomment, and at some point in the call, wherever it was, theywould say hey, Mike, you've been kind of quiet, or do youhave any do you have any questions? Is there anything we missed? Anyone of those things, whatever felt comfortable to them. I had to,as the leader, not engage in the discussion up until that point because ifI started engaging in the conversation before that point I could disrupt their workflow,describe disrupt their train of thought disrupt the way that they're navigating the call.So I actually think things like zoom make it much easier, to much moreconvenient, excuse me, to provide coaching opportunities. The other thing I woulddo is at the end of the call we'd always have fifteen minutes to debrief. Now sometimes we got really busy and calls we're going back to back,so we'd have to push some of those debriefs on. But after the clientdrops off you can go through and do a debrief on the call, whichit gets into the wood. What did you think? What would you know? What? What did you like? What would you have done differently?And then I'll go through and I'll share my notes and I'll say I'll usuallydo something like, when you ask this question, what was the desired impact, or something to that effect, or I'll just say, hey, thatwas an awesome call, and we navigate it that pretty well. So there'sa couple ways to do the virtual thing. I think there's some danger in,and this might be just me being the old get off my lawn kindof dude, but this is this. There's some danger in the recorded afterthe fact coaching as like one of the cool things about playing sports is thosecoaches could tell us what they were seeing, sometimes yell at us, but whateverway that they were prodding us, they could say in the moment andit was so close to the mistake that we made. When we start doingthese things in recorded a synchronous environments, there's so much time and space betweenwhen the behavior happened and when the follow up happened or the remdiation or thecoaching or the questions that the impact isn't a strong so that's one of theconcerns I've got about some of these asynchronous coaching tools that are out there thata lot of people are getting excited about. But that may just be me.No, no, I no, not at all. So I agree. I've always trained, you know, through my years. I would saydon't let an I you know, like an hour or two go by becauseit's still sort of fresh. But if I said do you might remember thecall you just had with Glenn about this issue, it's still going to besort of fresh and I'll say yeah, okay, and then even if youhad the ability to play the call for them, they're oh, okay,if it's tomorrow and that they've already made. So many other so many other thingshave happened. It's a gauntlong distant memory. Now again, if youdo have the recorded call, that's fine. You can both listen to the calland it's both objective and you can go through your process. But ifit unless it's recorded, but even then so many things have gone on.But what I also liked about what you said, and it's a great lessonfor everyone, listening the present for your team doesn't mean you have to bethe leader of the call. Doesn't mean you have to. I sit inthe background on calls and then I'll listen. But what also I liked was youhad time for a debrief and if you listened folks, Michaels did washe didn't tell them what he thought.

He asked them first what they thought. Right. So again a great training tip is always asking someone how didyou think? You did? What did you like? What didn't you like? Now, if they didn't like something, it probably is something you didn't likeeither. You know you're on the same page, but if not,it's okay. There I always say, if you ask the question first andthey say well, Mike, here's what I thought. Could you help me. They're sticking their hands out to you, opening up and saying, can youhelp me? If you come at them and say let me tell youwhat I heard, they immediately go into defense mode, justification mode, andthen nothing gets solved. So I really folks, if you have picked upanything, making sure that your present. Let your team run the call,ask them what they thought and then wait till they ask you. or inyour structure, recall you're the last person to offer your in your feedback,so that we can move forward. That allows you to be a coach,as you said, and help letting them learn to solve their own problems isreally key. Especially to your point about scaling. I think that's that's phenomenal, phenomenal advice. So Great. So Um, I have one last questionand then we'll get into our final few questions that I ask at the endof every episode. Briefly, there there's always been in our attention between marketingand sales, right, so sales blames marketing, marketing blame sales. Ithink the meaning on your marketing department is key for sales success and marketing leaningon the sales team to find out what are what are those questions that peopleare asking or where are those hurdles, or why are people coming to USversus our competitors? Only lends more real value to what you're pushing out intothe mark from a marketing perspective. In your experience when you go into ateam, right, so you've just worked with this Organization for a year,eighteen months, where their conversations with the marketing team or bringing what you sawor you know, how did you maneuver that, that alliance? So Iactually took on marketing. Is Part of my remit as the crow and andfailed. And one of the one of the ways that I failed there isI didn't create strong enough alignment across the organization, both in the hiring processand the kind of the the tone and the and the alignment piece where everybodyunderstood we're all on the same team, we all have the same domain inour email address, we all what are the same logo on our TSHIRTS,like we're all in this together. So, given that we're all in this together, we're all moving toward the same objective, let's do what we canto make sure that we accelerate learning so that we can have the impact weneed to have. So I actually I failed on that over the over thelast the last twelve months. What I can do is talk about better experiences, though. Better experience it's when it's when you are working hand in handwith each other, there's a high level of communication and trust. The personon the marketing size does their job really they know their business. They knowhow to do marketing. I know how to do sales, sort of.My VP of sales knows how to sell and my team knows how to sell. The VBIA marketing knows how to market. I trust that people know their jobs. As we go through they're going to be different things that will comeup where if there's tension, the reason why there's tension is because of someeither some kind of confusion. Maybe there's confusion about the approach or where we'regoing at, who we're going after inside the market or things that have shiftedor change in the market. And the confusion could be on my side froma sales perspective or on their side from a marketing perspective, but ultimately thetensions created by some kind of confusion. Another reason the tension could be createdis there might be confusion around what matters, what are, what's the actual numberthat we're moving toward? Are we more focused on leads that are generated, where we more focused on revenue that is generated? If we're more focusedon leads because there are some value in that number, then okay, let'sfocus on that. If we're more focused on revenue, let's make sure thatthat the leads are actually converting and contributing to the revenue. So an alignmentrelative to objective, so that there's not a level of confusion between the two, said to organizations, even if they're inside the organization, is right stremelyimportant. And for whatever reason we create and I don't know why, Ireally I struggle with the will why this...

...continues to happen, but it continuesto happen. But for whatever reason we create this tension because we tend tomiss aaligne. Objectives and measure things there aren't necessarily contributing or converting to thething that we're moving toward. And the reason why, I think, theprimary reason why we do it, even though I said I don't know why. Thinking primary reason is we don't ask ourselves the question about what really matters, like what's our focus, what's our actual objective, what's our in doorstar. What are we moving toward? Why are we moving toward it?How can we get there? How will we measure to determine are we actuallymoving toward it and create this alignment inside the organization? So I this oiland water challenge between sales and marketing. I think comes down to confusion.I think it comes down to misalignment on goals and objectives. I think itcomes down to a lack of trust and I think it comes down to,in some cases, the agenda of the person putting themselves before the organization ratherthan putting the organization first. Okay, yeah, I agree, and Ithink I struggle with that as well. Why it exists? Because when it'sworked well, where when marketing comes to you and says, okay, here'sour message that we were pushing out, is it connecting what or what arewhat are you hearing from your prospects when you know, as I said,why are they talking to US versus their competitor? What's our difference? Orfrom sales saying we'RE NOT DIFFERENT ENOUGH? We're not. We're not doubling down. Our customers are asking about this and we have nothing in our marketing thattalks about this. So I'm winging it. I I think to your point iseveryone's one not talking enough. And too, I think your point wasis the objective. You know, if you're thinking as a salesperson, Ineed leads, I need people, I need hand raisers, and the marketingis doing, yes, a little about that, but they're doing a longerpipeline type of marketing and funnel, and you know you want people who wantto buy right now and some of their interests are leads are higher funnel,and so there's that frustration where you're not giving me enough things to sell andmarketing saying, well, I'm the ones I'm giving you. You're not selling, just you know, and it's becomes this fight when truly they're two sidesof one coin. Marketing need sales, sales needs marketing and I wish theycould be better aligned. Think just to add a couple of more points,and you said be brief in the it's one of those cential we got justjump you jump right into there is good stuff, there's there's a so tothink of the customer journey discussion that you just went through. You said,look, everybody is there. They may be at the initial phase of noteven realizing that a problem exists. And it's so not only do they notknow that a problem are that your organization exists, they don't know that theyactually have the problem, but there's some content that creates a sense that aproblem exists and now all of a sudden the sales rep is contacting them immediatelyasking them about I can remire and decisionmaking process and all of those other things. They were not meeting the wrap, the individual is not meeting the individualon the other side where they are. And if we think about what marketingand sales do really well, as a sales professional, I should be ableto meet one on one with people and maybe even one on one with groupsof people, but I should be able to be in a room, readthe room, have a conversation, get be really good at getting feedback fromthat conversation and reacting to those feedback loops because I can adapt and iterate inreal time based on the information that's coming at me. On the marketing sideof things, even though the data continues to get better and there's a quickerspeed to impact or speed to those feedback loops. Remember, marketing doesn't eversee the customer directly. They're right. At least from what I understand,they're mainly communicating out to large groups of people who, in a lot ofcases they'll talk about personas in these are fictional characters that align with a specificAvatar of who we're selling to. On the sale side, we're actually dealingwith real people. So, if we think about it, marketing has areally difficult job to compel people to take a certain amount of action where somebodyelse is in the room. On the sales side we have the opportunity torespond and react to people in the room. If we're struggling with communication, imaginehow much value we could get by working with our partners on the marketingside to get an understanding of how they communicate when people aren't in the roomso that we can ask better questions when people are in the room and startto see people not and engage and provide that feedback. This is an areawhere I think both of them can really come together and we can learn fromeach other. Now, on the marketing...

...side we should also be able tosay, look, as you're out there engaging with the rep when you bringthese things up, how are people responding? How some racing. Are People leaningin? If they're not leaning in, maybe we don't want to talk aboutthat as much in all of this stuff that we're spending money on.So that these the alignment is so important. When it works, when there's thispartnership, and there are a couple of times I've worked with a coupleof amazing marketing professionals where there spend that alignment, it's magical when it works. Oh No, I agree. We in our agency. We talked aboutit all the time. Is Myself and the people who are selling have meetingswith the marketing team. In the marketing team will say, what questions didthey ask you? What topics did they start asking you about? So ifthey start the conversation, how are you different than other agencies? Well thenwe as marketers need to push that out. What stuck with them? Was itthe fact that we are smaller or we are customized or we do x? Great, because if not, marketing, as you said, is guessing,throwing a wide net hoping that something's going to connect. But if youcame back from sales and said the last three people talked about they are havingthis issue, marketing should say, Oh, let's go point come up to away where when we talk about that, we have a solution in someone goes, Oh, I have that problem. They have a solution. As yousaid, it draws them in. But without that information there are thesemisses and frustrations because then the blame game comes because we didn't talk to anyone. We just said well, marketing doesn't know what they're doing and then salesisn't doing this. Versus Collaboration, I think more collaboration in those those conversations, when you have the conversation saying if I talk to sales, I'm goingto get really good stuff, it's going to make my marketing better, andthen the salespeople understand what marketing does and maybe create something specifically for that salesperson. They feel engaged, that these folks are helping me, they're a resource, not an enemy. Yeah, yeah, we're all in this together. Ithink that's the thing. Like, we're all in this together. Ifyou're part of the organization solving a really important problem in the market place forspecific set of customers, you're all in this thing together. You're all workingtoward the same thing. Start running the same thing. Love it, loveit, love it, love it all right. That's a great place tosort of wind down here. So, first off, my love the factthat you're here, your passion. I love these because I try to taketime and you what you were just saying got me fired up and so greatvalue for the audience today. I think they're going to get a lot outof it. So as we wind down every episode, I usually ask threeor four questions. I call them the one which is just whatever one wordPOPs into your head. Their random questions have nothing to do with anything thatwe were just talking about, maybe, but I asked them, and solet's just jump right in. So what is one thing that you are reading, listening to or watching that is in spy hearing you, that you wouldwant to share with the audience? I mean, I'm reading the book peakmind right now and both reading and listening, and I don't have the author rightin front of me, but we'll get it and we'll put it intothe show. This you'll know. Just listening to the the perspective this authorhas around neuroscience and impact on attention is helping, is inspiring me to bemore present when I think I'm present. I'm one of those people who thinksI can watch a football game and still have a conversation at the same time. And and then I will miss the the gorilla that walks through the kidspassing the basketball back and forth to each other. Right. So, likethere's this I believe that I'm very attentive and then all right up until thepoint that I'm not. So if that is that that that is that's whatI'm digging into right now. That is inspired me to get better at beingpresent and being where my feet are. That trude. That's spooky, becausewhen I did my year end wrap up, one of the words that I saidfor two thousand and twenty two is presents, you know, and whenyou said being present, and I always say be present where your feet are, so aligned. Love it. Love it, love it. What isone place in the world that you haven't traveled to that you would like totravel, assuming we get rid of all of these travel bands? Where wouldyou like to go? Singapore? Singapore,...

I've never been Ashe Pack and loveto that. Yeah, they're there. That, that's that's one of thoseis on my checklist. Japan, all of that, whole areas online, but Singapore, I've heard. I've had a my brother went there andhe said phenomenal, phenomenal. What is one piece of advice that you receivedfrom someone that really helped you on your journey? Retired Colonel Chuck sloter saidleaders provide guidance, direction and motivation. And when I think about it Ithink of guidance, the the kind of the the engagement, the list inorder to provide guidance to someone, you have to be there, listen,engage and then you can share and provide some kind of perspective. So theyprovide guidance, they provide direction, they know where to point the light.Like we're we can get so distracted and move around and around in circles andleaders can help us point the light, or we as leaders should help pointthe directional light for the organization. So direction and then motivation, having helpingpeople understand how the things that they're working on align with the things that areimportant to them so that when things get rough, they can stay the course, maintain the level of commitment and just continue to move forward. Because ifall of the stuff was easy, it everybody would be doing it and itthe hard work is just part of the process. So, colonel trucks looter, leaders provide guidance, direction and motivation you more. If I took yourfamily, friends, close people who know you, put them in a roomand said describe you with one word, what would that one word that theywould use? Passionate. I would think that's a pretty good after just beingon the thing with you here for a while, I would say passion isdefinitely something I would say. All right, final question. We've talked about alot of things here and again, jam packed with great, great,great content. If you hoped that the audience, people listening took one thingaway from everything that you shared today, just one what would that one thingbe? Everything that we talked about focused around actually going out and doing work, not thinking about doing work, not not going around and round in circlesand talking about all of the things we could do. It's focusing on goingout and doing something. So, as a leader WHO's coaching your team,join calls, that's doing work, listen, that's doing work. Engage when appropriate. It's doing work. Provide feedback. That's doing work. Going through thedata that we started with. That's doing work. You've got to goout there and do the work, not just think about the work or talkabout the work. You've got to go do the work and I love that. That that is great. That is that is great and I could notagree more. Hard work, work in general. That's the deciding that,that's the differentiator and I appreciate that. So, Mike again, thank youso much for being here. This was a great conversation. So tell everyonehow they can connect with you. Tell them about your podcast, tell themabout you know where. I'll link everything in the show notes, but Iwant to hear it from you. I've listened to some of your episodes.Really great stuff. So tell people how they can connect with you. Thankyou. The best place to find out about what we're working on from abusiness is catalyst, salecom, Catalis, cellcom, and you should be ableto link out to all of the social pieces. The Social Media Area whereI'm most active is twitter, Simmons, underscore M and I'm also getting backinto linkedin. I've been on a milk carton, so to speak, overthe course of the last couple of the last couple of months from a socialmedia perspective. Those are the best places to to interact. Don't send mean email. Email is where things just go to die, right, butinteract on twitter, linkedin really good places and then always catalysts. Llcom Glenn, this has been absolutely awesome. Thank you very much for having none.I ask what your podcast? What your podcast? Oh sorry, thank you. The podcast is find my catalyst. It is just recently been rebranded.It was the catalyst so podcast. We took the words sale out just becauseI thought we could go to a much broader audience and absolutely gut of thepodcast is helping people overcome this challenge that they have relative to confidence and justbe able to take that next step relative to doing the work, find thatcatalyst that gives them the Nug to help...

...them do the work and I bringpeople on who either catalyst in my life, catalyst for me based on what I'veheard or seen, or catalyst in others lives that help inspire them totake that next step through practical acts execution the work. Not Talking about theoryand ideas around how this stuff should work, but people have actually experienced it.So that's the find my catalyst. All right. So so listen,folks, please connect with Mike. As you listened all you know the goal. Seems like this is great alignment because both of our podcasts are aligned toprovide tactical, strategic things that you can do. Now, I think aboutbut do but if you listen to everything Mike talked about today, it wasall about action. It was what you could do. So listen to thisover and over and over again. Share it out with your team. Pleaseconnect with Mike. Valuable. His information is great a recommended highly. It'llbring you great, great values. So again, Mike, Thank you somuch for being here. I appreciate your time and, folks, as youknow, at the end of every episode I tell you don't forget to subscribeto the podcast out on apple or, if you're an android user, onspotify, you can jump over to the Youtube Channel to watch Mike and Iboth. Please make sure you share it out. I'm sure there's a fewpeople in your network that could benefit from what Mike said. It's really valuable. Again, I know there's a lot of places for you to consume content, but the fact that you shared time with Mike and me means the worldas well. And, as I say at the end of every episode,you're in charge, but if you ever feel like well, now, whatwhat do I do next? Well, we're here weekly to provide you tip, strategies and hopefully, if you laughs, to make you both better professionally andpersonally. So again, thank you so much. Look forward to seeingyou on the next episode. Mike, Again, great meeting you. Thankyou so much. Thank you for all the value you brought to the audiencetoday. Thank you.

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