"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch
"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch

Episode 130 · 6 months ago

What Businesses Still Get Wrong About Marketing with Amalia Fowler


As marketing becomes more fragmented, finding the right strategy for creation, delivery and breaking down internal silos becomes more important each day. 

Amalia Fowler joins Glenn to discuss her views and experience handling teams, clients and the ever changing landscape of technology. 

Fascinating conversation filled with tactical tips. 

If you love it as much as we hope, don't forget to review us, share the episode and subscribe so you never miss an episode. 


Amalia Fowler: 

Amalia is the Founder of Good AF Consulting, a marketing and management consulting firm in Vancouver, BC. She's also a Marketing Instructor at the British Columbia Institute of Technology and writer of The Wholehearted Manager, a newsletter for people who lead with the heart and believe in treating their employees as humans, first. 

Amalia has been in PPC and digital for 7 years, focused on working to help small businesses understand search marketing, mentoring new marketers as they enter the field and pushing for more ethical practises in the PPC space. You can find her on Twitter, likely with coffee in hand. Her favourite saying is "it depends," because context is everything.

My personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/AmaliaEFowler

My LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/amaliafowler

The Wholehearted Manager Twitter: https://twitter.com/WholeHeartMngr

The Wholehearted Manager sign-up link: https://mailchi.mp/d99eb94af71c/thewhm 

About Glenn Pasch:

"Everyone finds themselves in charge at some point in their lives. Yet many of us lack the skills to generate consistent results. My goal is to help you learn the skills to adapt and grow in your personal and business life.”

Glenn Pasch is CEO of PCG Digital, a full service digital marketing agency that specializes in helping businesses create and deliver customers raving, recommending & returning for more. He is author of 2 books including "The Power of Connected Marketing" and has spoken and educated audiences throughout the US and internationally.

Let’s Connect:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glennpasch/

Personal Website http://glennpasch.com/

Company website: https://pcgdigital.com/

Well, welcome back to the show, and today we're going to be talking with Amalia Fowler, who is a digital marketing expert, ran agencies for about seven years and now has headed back to the classroom to teach college age students all about marketing, hoping to grow these marketers into competent, successful and also ethical marketers as well. We have a great conversation because we dive into what is what are some of the things that businesses are missing and marketing and how digital marketing has sort of evolved into this idea of just marketing now versus traditional, versus digital versus everyone needs to be at a table to help the client. And then, lastly, one of the best things is what is she learning in the classroom about being a leader, a coach, a teacher? What are the skills or things that she would now apply differently if you went back into the business world? Fascinating conversation. The time just flew by, but there are so many nuggets, so many great pieces of information. I can't wait for you to hear it. So let's dive into today's episode of you're in charge now what with Amalia Fowler. Okay, Amalia, thank you so much, for being here and so, you know, just chatting and following you online and connecting with you on twitter. I I just love your take on a few different things and I want to dive into them today for the audience. Number one is, as a marketer overseeing agencies, building agencies and just dealing with clients in general. What do you see in today's market place? What do you think businesses or companies are missing when they are or either executing on their marketing or creating a message for their marketing? That is an excellent question, and the number one piece that companies are forgetting in in my experience, in my opinion, is to bring value to their audience and to look at their audience first. A lot of companies start with you know, the new, bright shiny thing, or they think you know, someone's cousins aunt said, Oh, you have to start with Seo in this particular situation, right, and they forget the context and who they are talking to. Is What ultimately matters. First, you can't build a house without a foundation. You shouldn't start with the interior design of a house. Anybody would tell you that. You need you know the I don't know a lot about how houses are filled. But I do know that you need the foundation, you need the walls, you need the plumbing and the electrical you need all of those pieces before you start with the fancy things. And so that's that's the first thing is companies are forgetting who they are supposed to be serving and who they're supposed to be talking to and often can't see the forest for the treats. They assume that they know who that person is, HMM, because they've been in their business for so long or they're so close to their business, but often they could be wrong about who they're actually speaking with. Right. So do you think? In that case, I think that's spot on. But do you think it's because they become enamored with either their product, that they think it's so great that it appeals to everyone, versus as what I'm understanding you saying, is doing reverse engineering, meaning start with the customer, start with your audience, understand what they're looking for and then say to yourself, does my product solve that? And then how do I connect the message in my right and what I heard? Yeah, I think it depends. That's my favorite catchphrase. I'm probably going to say it a lot, but I think it depends on whether or not it's a brand new product or service or if you've been in business for a while and you've just been throwing things at the wall to see what sticks and now you want to make a concrete strategy and plan. I think there are different approaches. So if your brand new product, market fit is obviously incredibly important, and so understanding your place and positioning in the larger market. I'm not a positioning expert, but April done for a book on positioning is incredible. It focuses on bb but a lot of those lessons can apply to be Toc as well. But you have to understand, like, is there a market first and what competitive alternatives exist, because even if you look at my services in terms of like management, marketing, like people can choose to do nothing. That's technically a competitor to me. Rise people not doing any of it exactly. They can distignure it, you know, or use a pet and paper. That's technically a competitive alternative to you know what I do. And then, if you've been around for a while, I the act of identifying those consumers who engage with...

...your product and are champions of your product is one of the better places to start because you want to have more people like them right. And a big missed opportunity is actually just talking to the people who already love what you do or are repeat consumers, because in an ideal world you're going to find more people who behave like them, and too often companies try to force behavior change instead of meeting people where they are. Yes, yes, I that. So as I was listening to you, two things popped into my head. One is that idea and audience. For those of you who were in charge of the marketing, you know, make sure you're stopping for a moment to really listen. Is that idea of understanding your competitors. There is sometimes an arrogance to say, well, I have no competitors, but very few product, ducks and or services don't have competitors. Theoretically, you know, we could be competitors because I run an agency, you run an agency, but our philosophy is not so much that there isn't any competitors. Our philosophy is there's enough for everybody, so there's no reason to, you know, badmouth another competitor or someone who's in the market or doing the same thing. Just, you know, understand what your value prop is. But again to the second piece, and I remember having Adrian Barnes on the podcast talking about buy our personas, and one of the things that her company does is exactly that, reaching out to your customers to get feedback and sometimes having that third party asking for feedback your you may get better feedback from them because if if I sold it to you and I ask, you may hold back. So I think that's really important that it's sort of book ends in a way, where it's understanding what you want to do, but getting that feedback to validate your positioning. Or do I have to adjust based on feedback from my customers? Absolutely, I was channeling are and when I said that I follow her on twitter and when I teach by our personas to my students, I remove this emphasis on geography and demographics and really focus on behaviors and where they are, online or offline. I think another big mistake that marketing professionals make is assuming, excuse me, assuming, that you either have to be entirely online and the offline doesn't mean anything. Right, because we talk so much about the digital world, and I mean that is my world, but that does not mean I do not see the value of, you know, a well placed transit ad. If all of your audience are commuters, why aren't you in the space where they're commuting? Right? That just you know, I think we get really attached to binary ors like traditional or digital or, you know, seo or sem, and we get really attached to these like binary ideas and as humans are cognitive biases, were meant to make mentalist shortcuts. It's how we get through being so overwhelmed with information all the time. But it's also why I emphasize context so much. Right, because if you're complete, you know, you can have all these competitors who are all doing the same thing, do your audience research and realize, Oh, my audience is, you know, really into podcasts, and be the only one talking to them that way. Right, but if you didn't start with your audience, you wouldn't know where they are and how to speak to them. Yeah, and I think the the it's a really valid point you made about this idea of combining. I mean I behind me to to other CO authors. We wrote a book about that called Connected Marketing, because when I was doing audits for some potential clients, you would see all of this waste. And it wasn't so much waste as you were saying. In a particular silo, so to speak, you could say, oh well, maybe your paid search was a little off for your Seo with it was more the fact that one hand didn't know what the other one was doing. So there was that connection. So if I had something offline, if I ran a commercial, I ran did a radio, if I did a direct mail piece, nobody asked the digital agency where should I send them on the website? Do you need a landing page? Do you need something specific? And then if they had a physical location, well, when I went into the physical location, did I see something from the ad or some messaging that allowed me to go, Oh, I saw it offline, I saw it on the website. Now I'm here and I see it too. So it makes that connection. So I'll let me ask you this in your do do you think it is a going back to businesses? Do you think it is a still a prevalent problem where people who are running the marketing allow all of this to be in silos, meaning...

...that I have my call with my traditional agency, I have my call with my digital ages, I have my call with someone else, versus getting everyone to the table and saying here's our initiative. Okay, radio, what are you going to do? And website, what are you going to do? So it becomes this collaboration. Do you see that being an area of opportunity or do you see it happening all the time and it's just I've run across very few of it. It's does really not happening all the time. I would say it doesn't always need to happen. It's very business dependent. So like your average mom and pop shop that's right, doing appliance repair. Probably it does not need to engage all of those people at the same table. So business sized. It depends on business size. It depends on your team. It's there's a lot of factors. However, if there are multiple people involved in marketing, they definitely do not talk enough, even internally, like I've seen in house teams that are incredibly siload. That's another binary in house versus agency like that. It's not a competition. Both are have pros and cons. The best campaign I have ever gotten the chance to work on is an insurance based campaign here in the lower mainland and I was in I was lean on the digital side. There was a lead on the creative, there's a lead on the traditional and there is a lead on media buying, and all of us, just the for leads and the client, would get together and we built the whole campaign that way. It is the most beautiful integrated campaign I have ever seen in my life. It works so well. They've captured a whole portion of the market they were going after and it's all because, once a month, but we were developing this campaign, we sat down and decided together what would work and owned what and how to get from A to Z. We actually we stopped some creative from going to market. That would have been problematic on the digital right because it was an entire story and a video, but if you slice it into images, it just it didn't problematic right. And so I still see it, because I no longer am a part of the team that built that campaign, but I still see it and I'm still have this like priord around. Yeah, it's like, oh, that's a billboard and that's a bus back and that's the online version of this this thing I helped create. So people don't do it enough. They don't always need to do it in that mor well, I by it to that scale. But I think to your point, I think this is very valid for those of you who are running teams out there. If you're running, you know, for our agency, we take that approach, exactly what you were saying, and you know, for the digital space, where we have an account person, you know, account manager, they oversee it. But depending on what services, if you're doing paid search and you're doing social media and you're doing content, and see up you have for people and they're all collaborating together to provide this versus to your point, I've consulted for some clients and when I'm talking to the agency, well, the SEO team is in one building, the paid search teams in another building and so and they never talk to each other. It's just again that idea of a sideload approach where, well, I did my piece versus team point, that collaboration in secret. They act like I can't tell you what I'm doing with Yeseo, yes, because you're going to steal it or you know it's so proprietary. Listen. Yes, yes, my secret, my secret sauce, as they say. I have secrets. So I tell clients if you have anyone telling you they have secret sauce. Please run away because they're you know, there is no secret sauce. No, there isn't there a hundred thousand ways to do the same thing and just different strategies and to act like it's one of the things that really grinds my gears because we have so many issues in the industry. It's a very low barrier to entry. Google is our overlord, like we're at their mercy. And what's the third one? Is We have a bunch of issues, right, and Oh, just the unethical behavior of some marketers because we're unregulated. Yeah, the third one. We have so many issues to actually collaborate and tackle. Why are we at hiding our strategies from each like any time an agency or a client has left me has not been like because of someone else, like because of that kind of thing, like a little nuance and strategy. It's usually a changeover in who's on their side. Someone's communicating better, just a better mesh of like personalities, and there's nothing I can do to prevent that. And not sharing my strategy with their partner is certainly not going to like keep them as a client. Yes,...

...no, and I've run across that as well, where you know, other agencies don't want to share, they don't want to talk to you, they won't give you access to go look at something or an even basic analytics because they think something set up. I said, there's only certain ways to set things up. It's not, you know, you're praying on, as you just said, and and folks, if you're in that position as leadership to sometimes there is that this disreputable agency that's going to prey upon the fact that the client doesn't understand what they're talking about. So they fall prey to the way of secrets. I can't show you this, or the reporting is so basic. Well, you don't need to really understand this. So, for all of you sitting in that chair, what's going to win, and what Amalia is saying to you is what's going to win is your clarity, your transparency, your explanation, bringing them along for the ride, because at the end of the day, I need my clients viewpoint of what's going on to help me understand, as we circled earlier, I need them to understand, help me understand their audience and, if it's a local business, where they draw from, where they want to market to. I could sit in my office and look at a map and guess. But I need them. But if I'm going to constantly keep everyone at arms distance, then I don't think you have that collaboration. I don't think you have that successful marketing campaign. I don't think you and I think, going back to my very first question, I think that's one thing that businesses are missing is demanding that transparency and demanding that someone explain to me what are you doing for the money on paying you and what results am I getting? Absolutely and I also think more and more good practitioners in the industry are realizing that. You know, Seo, sem, content, US, but they all meet at this intersection of user experience. Yes, and so we should all have a hand in developing that user experience from a strategic perspective because, like I'm primarily an as and a search marketing professional. They all go to the website. If I'm not speaking to the developer, if I'm not speaking with someone in content, if I'm not able to work with whoever's changing the website, then you know, what's the point of me doing half the work to send them somewhere that isn't going to end up converting them? Like that's not all. Even having that website provider saying to in your chair, saying, is the website tagged or strap? You know, can I see where they're going versus I'm dropping them on here? But you haven't set it up where I can see their path, I can see events, I can see conversions, I can see all the way through. So that now that allows me to make my marketing better. Right, because now I can send better signals back to, as you said, your overlord, Google. Right, all that we send in the signals back, because then it makes the ads better. But if I don't have that, then I'm limiting my own performance. But you're right. That's that idea of collaboration versus I can't tell you, don't tell me what to do. I'll do my and you're going, wait a minute, the client. We're trying to support the client here and be successful, even off boarded. Like clients are like I'm leaving and I'm like, like not great, but like okay, let me help you find your next person, because I have honestly audited and looked at so many different add accounts where thousands of dollars someone's hard earned money is being wasted and it. It drives it drives me crazy, like I this is my soapbox. This is I this is what I stand on. Literal Stag doesn't and yell about is you. You just like, why do we let this happen? There are so many good people in the industry, so many people who have excellent intent and by us in fighting over things that don't matter, we wow this on a these unethical practices to occur. And what I would say to people who are running marketing in an organization is if you ever ask a practitioner to come to the table with other practitioners for a discussion and they say know that, that is a major red flag that I would really reconsider my relationship with that vender. Yes, or even I've had times where clients they come to us or, you know, we're either auditing or they're coming aboard as a new client and they don't own the access to anything. Now again, will give like, you know for their own, you know, add account. If some clients come in they don't have one and will use ours, but if they want all of the accounts that are set up, if they're leaving, will give them to him. Where there are a lot of other companies will say no, it's not. A client has to start, you know, fresh again however they want. But to your point is, they don't even allow anyone to look in. Can I have access to the AD account? Can I have access to Onley? There are some clients to come to us don't even own their analytics to the website or they don't own the, you know, add account...

...for social media and I think, oh my goodness, what's going on? Oh well, the agency said it was better for them and I said, well, that's because they're going to hold it over your head as hostage so that you don't want to leave. And to your point that there's a lot of bad practitioners. So again, folks, listen to what just we just talked about. If you know, you should own it, access to everything, and make sure it's very general. Don't make it the marketing person's email, because if the marketing person leaves and then you're you're stuck without access. But you need to own access to everything. If your agency won't give you access, wrong agency, if they won't come to the table to work in a collaborative with all of your other marketing partners. I agree red flag. I don't care. That means that. So they're afraid that someone's going to point a finger now again. There are some agencies, like traditional agency. Sometimes you know this. In the beginning they would sell. I don't want to sit with her. She's going to tell the client at what I do traditionally is garbage. Now it's at a date. Give me all the money and we're all past that, because I personally think, well, let me ask you this, Dude. I as having this discussion with someone. Do you think that that digital marketing has now gotten to a point where it could be considered traditional marketing, meaning it's just has to be done? That's what I mean by traditional, like that just has to be done now. It's not new shiny thing, it's just we all have to do this now. Yeah, you know what, I would buy that definition of traditional marketing being something that you have to do and by the fact that I think I've encountered one business in the last five years that does not have a website. He replaced my window, my window screens. It was really funny. We thought it was a scamp, but he's a great job. But yeah, I would say that we all have to do it and the way I think about it, as I've always taught it this way to my students, is you have you have your foundation, your overarching the people you're talking to, the way you're speaking to them. You know what you want to achieve. You need your goals at that level. You need to know where you're going. And then, I you have like a strategy of kind of the overall messaging, and then you have your tool belt. You have all of these different tools you could use right help get there, and I just seat traditional and digital, or traditional, quote unquote, the way we've spoken about traditional, I see out of home and broadcast and digital all in the same tool. Oh, I don't think one is better than the other. You have to look at all of the potential options you have and, knowing who your audience is, knowing where you want to go and knowing where the gaps are in your existing strategy, you just pull the the tools you need right. Yeah, the way that we talked about it in the book that we wrote, We got rid of those labels. We just said there's offline media, right, and so that's the way we talked about it. Offline would be well, could be radio, it could be TV, it could be the newspaper would be a piece of mail, but it's still depending on your market, where you are. Could be value online, we understand that, or in store. Right. So all of that was being able to say it all works right, and I remember having a discussion with someone with in an audience who said, well, the newspapers dead, it's horrible, it doesn't work. And so I asked him. I said, what's the biggest newspaper in your area, and he named it and I said, okay, what's the biggest day of circulation? He said Sunday. Of course. I said, okay, what if you got the back page or the front page of that newspaper full add for Your Business and it cost you a dollar? Would you do it? He said absolutely. I said, will wait a minute. You just told me that newspapers are dead. So it's not the newspaper we're talking about, so it's the cost. Okay, now we can have that discussion. All of a sudden it opened everyone's eyes to say everything could be effective depending on what you're willing to pay for, or it's effective this instead of, as you said very clearly, that binary yes or no, versus maybe everything depends. This is why I say it all the time and my student laugh at me, but then we'll have a guest speaker come in and in their guest speaking at some point they'll say it depends and the whole class will laugh and then I had to explain why they're laughing at them. Right, it's because of it, because it really does depend. No two businesses are the same. No true businesses audiences are the same. No true strategy should therefore be the same. And we've got to stop saying things are dead, like if someone tells you a tactic is dead, they they are narrowly looking at said tactic. The QR Code died right, we killed it off. As marketers where the last two years of our life, the Qr code has been everywhere. It was one of the most talked about super bowl commercials this well, it was also the fact that also the technology of all that. I remember Qr Code. You do two in the beginning had a download,...

...a specific APP, and maybe it work. Now I just point your you point your camera at it and it works. So it's easier. And also the situation of what's been going on the last, you know, two years, of course, the q our Code, and now people have found a happy balance of saying I like using it because it's easy, where before it might have been frustrate. And I agree with you because there's another little something when you said just clicked in my head was I think some people are always look at this idea of a plug and play strategy, meaning I set up my strategy and it goes. There's so many businesses that are seasonal, you know. So what happens? If what happens during the winter or the spring or, you know, summer, and so is this my busy season versus slow season? Do I wratchet up spending to why pull my spending back? Do I change the messaging? I think there are a lot of agencies out there were people doing marketing thinking, and maybe it's just because they're newer at it. They think it's a one size fits all or it's a set it in forget it, or that's off my plate. I got that running because I have something else, versus being more of a chemist and sensing and pulling those levers back to adjust to get maximum performance for your client. I love the idea of it. People like a chemist and chemistry, because you're absolutely right. My very first agency, everything was cookie cutter and I didn't I didn't know any better. I was at junior I was learning from other people. Everything was you know, we did car dealership, so there is not a lot of variants in the different car dealerships. We would also try, to be fair to us, to get car dealerships to tell us their unique selling proposition. But I don't know, the automotive industry is typically about ten years behind everyone else when it comes to marketing. So free coffee and Free Wifi are never going to be unique selling proposition in the automotive industry. Everyone has it now. So so that was like pulling teeth. But we were cookie cutter and you know, people in different regions of the same country search differently. I currently have campaigns running in New Hampshire and Massachusetts for US service based company, and the one the Massachusetts campaigns like couldn't get them off the ground. It was the language. It was the fact that literally across the border they search differently and they use different words, like a Christ state border, and so if you're not paying attention to that or the nuances of the seasons or what your competitors are doing, like it really is like being a chemist where you have all these things, you have to write them together and everyone's well, an experiment explodes your face and then you have to figure out, okay, how do we adapt for what? You have to also be honest with yourself in your clients to say not all marketing works. You know you some of it is a it's a process and we're trying to make progress during making these adjustments and and I our agency does a lot of work with automotive dealers and I would say now maybe they're two years back now. We we've moved them up, a lot of ups and I worship moved them up. But to your point, we have some Canadian clients and US clients and from different states. And you know, some dealerships are in a metro market, somewhere in a rural market summer trying to pull from a metro make it a destination store. So you're right. There's two points, the two things that you said. One was this idea of they're very similar and it's right. We have explained to our clients that a car is a car is a car to a lot of people like a steak is a stake as a stake. And I worked in hospitality so one of my mentors used to say it's not about the food. Yes, the food has to be good, but in New York City there's a million places you can get a good steak. It's the experience that wraps around it. We have to do it and then we have to repeat it over and over and over again, because if we market it, then we have to deliver on it right and so same thing to your saying is that I can create something, but if I'm not in lockstep with the client to say can you really deliver this, we're really what is your process? First, what do you think you do better and everyone else? And then I can start creating a marketing message to to push out into that industry. So on a pivot, because you mentioned something and I don't want I think it's a fascinating take it. So you agency life, ran agencies, build agencies and now you're back in the classroom and now you're teaching. So we'll first what was that decision of? Why Teaching? And then second, is teaching running a team in business. What are similarities? What a difference is? What did you bring from business to the classroom or classroom out to business? So first, why heading back to the classroom. Yeah, it's a great question. So I spent around seven years in agency and actually three of those as a director of marketing. So I wrote...

...a bit of a rocket ship because my first job in agency was at a start up and so in those three years I think I worked with a hundred and thirty different clients. I built a team of five and at the end was managing about five million a year and ad spend. So not your typical first three years of that I was a director of marketing three and a half years in and then spent three more years helping build that agency and working with that team. And towards the end of my time at the second agency I realize, and this is going to sound a little bit terrible, but like I was really tired of client communications. I'm good at it, but I was tired of the constant relationship management from an ongoing month to month standpoint. I had some amazing clients and this is no shade on them at all but, as we all know, for every you know ten amazing clients, when you are personally not in control of sales of the agency, there are ten that really drained you throughout the week or the month. Like just like there's bad agencies, there's also bad clients. That's just, you know, there's just there's there is on the other side, sure, and but I loved educating clients and I am really passionate about helping them select the right marketing part Warner, like marketing matchmaking. I'm really passionate about educating businesses to find the right people to work with because of all those things that I mentioned earlier. So that education piece for clients was something I did, I liked doing and I kind of optimized my career the way I've optimized, you know, hundreds of client campaigns at this point where it was like what is working well? I like educating, loved mentoring my new team members, love doing team teamwork and collaboration and being their manager. I did not like the client communication aspect and I really didn't like the nitty gritty HR salary conversations without a solid framework to work with. In so my last agency was smaller and there was no compensation framework and so I would get in these really weird feeling ethical positions for myself where I felt like my team deserved more, but they're either wasn't more to give them or for whatever reason it wasn't going to come and I was kind of like feeling releasedtuck in the middle, and I didn't like that right. So I thought to myself, well, how do I educate and mentor and keep a foot in the strategy world and get rid of the client part? And the answer was teaching back at the college I actually graduated from. Because their adults, I don't have to talk to them about their salary. Theoretically, they have everything under control. Also, if they don't do their assignment, that's not mine right. That's not a disciplinary conversation. That's just there's consequences for not doing something, and the mentorship and collaboration piece is just off the charts. I love teaching them. I love teaching them so much and I have had such a great first year in the classroom. Plus it also helps me feel like I'm combating that like unethical piece in the industry because I get in at the ground level. Every year I tell two hundred and fifty future marketers like these are the things that are not great to do right. ASPARENT with your clients. If something doesn't feel ethical to you, like, then it probably isn't. You know, tell them, the bad and the good, you know, basically kind of an outline of how to be a good marketer. My husband laughs at me. I say I just want to do good marketing and he's like what is that? And I'm like but it's just no, no, I see, I understand exactly what you're saying and I've done some teaching up at a college in Michigan. They somehow convinced me to do it, so I went up. You know, I'd fly up, do a class and do one remote. But you tweeted out something, excuse me, today, I think it was today, maybe was yesterday, about your teaching and how you said it makes you feel like, not that you don't know anything, but it's starting at the beginning again and and and sort of reminding yourself maybe if things that you took for granted, because now you have to explain them in it re energizes your passionate about it, of what you're teaching. But I think of what I took from the tweet about saying I starting afresh was how many things you may have taken for granted that you actually know and love, but we're sort of on autopilot because you're in the day to day grind of an agency. Yeah, seven years of being one of the like leadership team members at an agency, you forget how...

...intimidating entering this industry is. You right get the learning curve. You forget how much there is to learn. And so teaching people who are brand new and being open to their questions and re explaining and having these you know, every before every exam, I asked them to write down, anonymously, like, what they're afraid of with the exam and I collect them at the break and then I don't share them with anyone, but I I put them in piles and I hold up the sack and the like. You're not alone. Look at how many of you are afraid of analytics, or look at how many of you are afraid of the Google ads option. And that's really reset a little bit how I think about learning in this industry and how encouraging I think we really need to be of new, newer marketers. And on the flip side, I was also new, like working in an academics is very different than we're any to see. So if it weren't for the mentor supporting me right now, I would be lost, and so I have felt lost in the last nine months in a way where I had not in the previous seven years. Well, let me as because, yeah, one of the one of the things that I had to get used to and my mentor at the school, who took me under the wing his way, because I taught three semesters. He put his arm around me and just had this big smile and said, Glend the here's the thing you have to learn. There's business speed and there's academic speed, and academic speed is very slow. Business speed is a lot faster. So you have to do there's a lot more meetings and there's a lot of more things to think about, especially if you're in a smaller agency or midsize agency, where you can have a meeting and say let's try this and everyone go sure, let's go, and off you run. He said that doesn't happen. Just calm down, and so that that was something fascinating. So let me, let me, let me touch on that, because it because that idea. You've hinted at it. So I want to expand this because there's people who are listening to this who are in those positions that you were in running either they're newer to a team or even people who are experienced, and there is that sense of well, we just got to move and there's that that sense of impatience or we moving faster or not allowing people time. So, as a teacher, in the things that you've learned over these nine months teaching, what are some of the things that you look back, if you looked a little bit back at how you were running teams, what were some of the things? Because, even if you were great and from what you were saying before, early on you said I didn't have churn on my team and I believe I was a good leader. was there anything that you said? Oh, if I did it again, I'm bringing this now with me to my next you know, if I go back into the business realm, what would you be taking that you learned or re energize, reignited or learned something different from teaching in the classroom that you would bring forward into your next gig running a team of professional in the business world? Yeah, that's a great question and I am still doing my consultancy and hoping to grow that in whatever direction it ends up going. So I'm hopeful that I will build a team there as well, but I will be the person at the top. So that's a really interesting switch for me. I've always been, I guess, a middle manager or top middle manager. There's two things and I don't think I didn't do them, but I think I realized now the importance of them and that I would do it more often. And, to be very clear, my management career definitely evolved. So I was not a great manager the first time around, but it did have two team members from that agency come to the next agency with me. So I actually pulled two of my top senior people event right over to the second agency and I think both of them would attest to the fact that I was a much better manager the second time around. So I think if I could do it a third time, I would emphasize two things. The first is curiosity and the second one is vulnerability. So explain, explain them both. I will curiosity. I think a lot of managers jumped to the conclusion when their team members do something wrong that there was intent to do wrong or laziness or okay, no, they just like didn't pay enough attention to detail. And I have learned to from students to when you know they don't hand in the assignment or they don't show up for the meeting they scheduled with you. My first question now is always, can you tell me why this happens? It's not this shouldn't have happened. What are you doing your terrible or whatever...

...like you can't come and hot the first time around? Yeah, because it might be you. You might have explained it terribly, you might have not set them up for success. What a lot of professors and managers don't realize is that their students or team members come in with some past trauma. Other professors have shamed them in class or other managers right. They haven't been allowed to be themselves. They and, regardless of how nice and empathetic and wonderful and intent like, positive intentions you have, they're carrying that experience and they're not going to come to you all the time when they should, and they're not like they're working through stuff we're all working through. So well there, I think, to your point. There's something that, again, I hope everyone's listening to this, is that idea of one getting emotions out of this, because that's always dangerous when it becomes about the person versus the actions. Right. So I think we're what you're saying is we have to be very clear when we're not getting the results that we wanted. The way I you know, you, you, you and I are thinking along the same lines as if I don't get the results I want, it's not them there. This is actions. It's not personal, and I agree. I think most people come to work wanting to do a good job. There's some reason they decided this was right or something impacted them that pulled them off track. Our job is to find out what happened, even why. Sometimes is a very defensive question. Why did you do this? Like AH, versus. Okay, let's walk through what happened right. What are actions right? So we're disc we're disconnecting it from a personal things, like just walk me through what happened here and then maybe they can say and the other piece I think is really important for managers understand, as you're a manager as much as you think we're friends, you have that title or you're the teacher. There is a hierarchy. Yeah, that is ingrained in us to say, well, I can't be friends with the teacher. Sure, I can't just go up, I can't just go tell my boss. Don't worry about it. So you're right, there's a lot of either past baggage behavior and you have to be cognizant of that and, and I love that word, curiosity of digging in, like I always tell my people who I'm coaching as managers, you need to be like a detective, right to detective. What happened? We came on. I always joke we came on a crime scene. Here the results. We have to go. Okay, what happened here? Really love it because it's collaborative. So I always try to approach with this curiosity the first time around and then collaborate. Okay, what is the what is what are we going to do differently? Yeah, how are we going to approach this next time? I'm going to do this, you're going to do that. And then I send a follow up email and it's just just the two of us. No one's getting CC like it's on an HR thing, right, but it's like this is what we've agreen on so that next time, if the same behavior happens again, you have conversation aid to refer back to you well and discuss this. Yeah, and to your point is, I think again you've just been knocking just so many of these. There's these beautiful nuggets that just keep popping out and I don't want again. I slow things down sometimes because when you said sometimes, it's you. Oh right, I always said to myself, because my mentor taught me this years and years ago. First Time, if your team is not getting the performance you want first, it's shame on you. Like you immediately should look to yourself first and say, maybe I didn't explain it. One of the best questions he taught me, and I've told every single person that I still have. People who've coached twenty years ago always said I never forgot this Glen, which was what do you remember from training about this? I love that. If they don't, they're going to only tell you one if they're comfortable enough, I don't remember. Okay, we'll do it again, or maybe it's half half and we can tweak or maybe the bigger thing is is they know what they're supposed to be doing. They're choosing not to do it. That's a whole different conversation. But if my approach is all how many times do I got to tell you to do this, let's go there in their brains going this why I don't like lean is well, I don't like clean, but if I actually so, will wait a minute. You know what to do. Why aren't you doing it? Could be well, I don't think your way works. I think my ways better. Completely different conversation, but I think again, everyone listened to that. First things first. Focus on actions and focus on the first time to really think maybe I wasn't clear. Like I've done it. I've done meetings and I think I'm perfectly clear. And my top people who've been with me for a while ago, you know, you weren't they you live it. Favorite moment from this term because we lectured online a little bit in January because of the virus and the front spike. So we're online for bit and I was lecturing on this crumb project management process then, if you know what that is, it's the complicated the concept to understand. I...

...was like twenty minutes into this lecture and I get this private message on zoom and it's like you're going way too fast and none of us understand what's happening. And so like I just loved that. There was this person. He was like and they privately message me and I didn't say they then call it. I was like you know this is really complicated. Let's go back and I just really started the whole thing over. That's great, but it's like you can't. It was me and honestly, I think in my first two management rules, even like even through the time of my second agency, there were times I didn't realize it was me. And like that's the other thing is you're not going to be perfect, which leads me to the vulnerability side of things. HMM. I've had a lot of managers. They reach out to me on DM's to talk about this kind of thing and the answer to almost all of their questions because they're like, I don't know how to train this person, it's my first employee, I don't know this, or I don't know how to reach out to this person whose mom just died. Like what do I do? And my answer always includes some level of tell them you don't know what you're doing. Wow, yeah, at your employee, I'm so sorry to hear about your mom. I don't know what the best thing is to do right now, but I want you to know that the team and I are here if you need it right. That's right, like I tell my students all the time. When I was in your chair. I had no idea what I was doing and it just brings every like it takes that inherent power that is involved in being a manager or involved in being a professor and it brings it. It equalizes the situation a little bit. Yeah, being like look, you're my first employee, I don't know if I'm going to do this right, so I need you to tell me what you need and we will collaborate. I take and see. I think that is so spot on, that idea of collaboration where you know, I've told my team my job, my job, it or the duties. See, so I always tell people it's not the title, it's the duties, because sometimes when I'm not there, someone has to step up and do the duties to make the machine run. So it's not just me. So the idea is is that my role or my duties are no more important than anyone's. They all have to work together because if you don't do your job well, then the machine stops. If I don't do my job, the machine stops. But it's at idea, and I love that. Of Well, we I'm not quite a hundred percent sure, but why don't we both research it? Why don't we both go see if we can find a solution together. I think more of that if more of that happened, or allowing the other person to say, as a leader, to say to your employee, what do you think? And they so well, I think we should will. Okay, let's start there and go. I think that solidifies a team and put you in a much better position as a true leader, because a true leader doesn't think they have all the answers. I think that builds. That goes back to even what we were saying in the agency. Builds those blows and then it be builds. While as long as I do my job, I don't care about anyone else and I don't think your team can move forward if everybody's only focused on themselves. It's so true. And often the manager is not the subject matter expert in like what their team is doing either. I managed a team of Seo and SEM professionals and I was by far more versed, well versed on the Sam side, when we started, and you have to trust that they're like that they attend, they intend to good things, that they're going to do, that they can and give them the tools to use you as a resource and just like campaigns can't be cookie cutters. People are not cookie cutter. And I hate this idea of leave your private life at the door, like I don't know anybody who can like have a pet die and then they walk through the door of their workplace and magically their pets not debt, like they don't feel like they're pains. That like, that's not. It's not a thing like separate the emotions from the person. Absolutely, but we cannot separate our life from our no, no, and and and and, to your point, I think that's a great way to sort of wrap this section up for you. That for the audience that are leaders. Is that idea of you hired those people to be actual, I always tell people. People say, Oh you SEO man. So my team is way smarter than me, but that's why they're they're doing what they do. I need them to bring to the table. Hey, there's a new thing, you know. So today, when we're recording this, you know, Google and a lytics just set. Okay, in a year we're going to sunset this and of course I'm a joke with my team and they're going, don't worry about it, we got it. Well, we'll make sure right. But that's why I said I was like my job is to hire smart people and get out of their way, like let them do I have my own things to do. Let them do that. And I think that, again, is that idea of a I always looked at as a sports team or a pit crew in a race to like everybody has their job to do to make that get that machine back on the track as quickly as possible.

That's what I think a leader needs to do is to put the right people in the right positions, make sure their train. Your job just to make sure it's running, and then get out of their way and let him do their job. I think I built my team's like puzzles, like I am. That's great, great way. I am an extroverted, bigger picture, you know, plannerstor like strategic person, and my right hand person, who now runs the team, was an introverted detail oriented processes person and together, honestly, I would work with him a thousand times over because our skill sets meshed perfectly. But I know exactly what I should not do and it just went to him, and I think that's why I always say self awareness is the most important trait as a leader. You cannot go anywhere without it. People will tell me communication or you know, but I think you have to know yourself. If you do not know what you're bad at, you can't build a team. Exactly, and I think probably because it sounds very similar to my brother and I, who were partners in the firm. We very similar and I will bet you your right hand has made you a little better at process or more aware of that, like slow you down a little bit, like he's a little bit of the break, but on the flip side, you've probably pulled him out of his shell a little bit to be a little more risky. So it's that gas break type of thing and each of you have may become a little bit more to the center of understanding each other and how to work together. Doesn't mean you want to do what he does and I'm sure he doesn't want to do what you do, but understanding that that collaboration becomes richer because we understand each other a little better and you can ladder it down. So the person I hired support him was more like me and the person I hired support her was more like him, and it's like exactly. So then when someone leaves. It's like a shift where everyone just kind of moves up a little. Absolutely, in an ideal scenario. Doesn't always happen, right, but yeah, all right. Well, listen, I I love talking to see this time just flies by when they know that it's always great. So so again everyone. I again just all of these conversations that we were talking about today. They all have similarities because even with the marketing alignment and collaboration, you know, whether you're doing seo or paper, Click and social media, all of that with the client or other vendors, it's that collaboration of a team very similar to building a team, and I think all of it needs that idea of curiosity, of being willing to say, if I'm running Seo, well, do you need something from paigs? Or Hey, by the way, I was doing some research. Maybe it'll help the paid maybe they'll help social or hey, I'm running something offline. Where should I drop it online? You know, all of that collaboration as well as just a team in and of itself putting all those pieces together. I love that idea of a puzzle. So all right. So we end every single episode we have call it the five ones. So we ask you to talk about one thing, whatever comes to mind first, so you don't have to really think through it. All right. So question number one is when you look back at yourself as say, a nine or ten or eleventh grader, yeah, my son is sixteen and I see this sort of raw moldy you know. Now you look at yourself, what is what was the one thing that is similar that sort of carried through that if you look back at yourself, said I've always had this one trait, and what's the one trait that is maybe completely different, that would surprise your sixteen year old self that you have today. The first one's ambition and still just as ambitious as ever. And the second one would be self confidence. I was a quiet teenager. No one believes me when I say that, but I was. I was quiet. Yeah, AM Bishop Self Confidence. Love that. Love that, that's that's great. Okay. Next one is what's the one thing that you're either watching, reading listening to that is inspiring you that you would recommend to the audience? That is an excellent question and I'm going to butcher her name, so I apologize to her in advance, but Katelyn Bourgean her, I think it's poort on. Her last name to be determined. That's not sure how they say it. But her news letter about why we buy. It's all psychological, like biases and tendencies match to marketing and I am obsessed with this newsletter. So it inspires me all the time. I bring the ideas in a classroom clients. That's great. Well, we'll put this, all of that in the show notes as well. Okay, one place in the world that you have not been to that you would want to travel to? One just this one. I'm going to break through all I'd a tie. Okay, tween Italy and Estonia, twin in Estonia.

Okay, so there they are. Okay, to to two last questions. What is the one thing when you travel? What's the one thing that you can't live without when you're traveling? My first instinct was to say my husband, because he keeps you so grounded and organized, but it's just like that terrible and will bring him along. Okay, my perst instinct outside of that, the one thing I can't live without a camera. Okay, like a camera camera or your phone camera either, just something to document. I'm a big documentary okay, all right, last one. We talked about a lot of different things and it has been a phenomenal conversation. What's the one thing that you would hope the audience took away from our conversation? If there was just one thing you said, I hope they got this. What would it be? that it really does depend the context piece that we fall into these binary traps of what is good and what is bad for our marketing, for teams, for ourselves, for the industry, and we can't think like that. It really like we need to slow ourselves down and not just recognize the context for ourselves, but also that if somebody makes a different decision, that it's probably due to context that we don't have, and I see that a lot of the time in doing audits for other agencies. Work Right is I try not to be really critical of little things because we don't know what the client said, we don't know how much information there they've been given, we don't know what they stated the account was when they got it. We don't know the historical significance of everything, we don't know the off cline pieces, and so I think we do a real disservice to ourselves to our peers to our teams to other colleagues in the industry when we don't add a context lends to what we're looking at. I love that, love of that. That is phenomenal. Well, wow, so I'm all yet this was so much fun. So tell the audience how they can connect with you. I know how I connected with you, but where if they want to connect with you, where can they find you online? Absolutely so the best place is twitter. My handle is Amalia e fowler. Also on Linkedin, although please add a little message that you're coming from this podcast, because it's getting a little overwhelming on that platform for me. Yes, and then I also write the whole hearted manager newsletter every other week. We talked about some of these different pieces as it relates to management and most of the audience are marketers and you can find that at whole heart and Ngr, because twitter doesn't like long handles on twitter as well. Great. Well, I really appreciate your time. This has been a phenomenal conversation. So again, please connect. That's how we met and when I follow you, I love what you're saying, love your tweets. I'm going to be getting your newsletter. It's been on my list to do so now that we're chatting, I will get it as well. I think this has been really a really what I loved about this conversation was a lot of tactical things, and that's always been the goal of this podcast, is to have people be able to come here when they say now what, when I what are I do, and get some tactical things, tactical advice. So, audience, you know the drill. Please make sure that you subscribe to the podcast. Please share this out. I know there's some one in your network that could benefit from our conversation today. Please make sure that you subscribe over on Apple or wherever you do it, or on you know if you're if you're an android user, anywhere you find podcast, you can go there or you can jump over to the youtube channel of the same name and you can watch our conversation. Thank you all so much. I appreciate the fact that you joined us today. I know there's a lot of places for you to consume content, but the fact that you spent some time with a Mollia and me means the world. Thank you so much. And, as I say at the end of every episode, you're in charge, but when you say to yourself now what? Now? What do you do? We're here weekly to help you out. Thanks so much, and we'll see you next time.

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