"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch
"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch

Episode 131 · 8 months ago

Taking the Friction out of Sales with Dan Englander

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Struggling with Sales is one of the things that keeps leaders and owners of business up at night. Changes in process, changes in staff or even changes in marketing. 

What is the right mix of process, talent and training? Dan Englander, owenr of Sales Schema shares his thoughts on how companies often miss. He shares strategies on what he does to help businesses improve performance and become more consistent. 

Tactical advice. If you find value, please review, share and subscribe. 

Dan Englander

Dan started his career out doing grunt work at an agency in New York, but after observing the downfall of the traditional agency model, he founded Sales Schema where he now helps digital agencies customize their sales and marketing processes so they can win big fish clients. Currently, Dan and his team have executed over 7,000 campaigns, won millions in lifetime revenue, and have generated 3,000+ agency/brand meetings for clients with companies like Birchbox, Stripe, and Venmo.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/danenglander/ 

Dan's book recommendation

War of Art: https://amzn.to/3JkMmRT

Road Less Stupid: https://amzn.to/3jiWmR0

About Glenn Pasch:

"Everyone finds themselves in charge at some point in their lives. Yet many of us lack the skills to generate consistent results. My goal is to help you learn the skills to adapt and grow in your personal and business life.”

Glenn Pasch is CEO of PCG Digital, a full service digital marketing agency that specializes in helping businesses create and deliver customers raving, recommending & returning for more. He is author of 2 books including "The Power of Connected Marketing" and has spoken and educated audiences throughout the US and internationally.

Let’s Connect:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glennpasch/

Personal Website http://glennpasch.com/

Company website: https://pcgdigital.com/ 

Support for this episode comes from PCG digital. As a business owner, you want to surround yourself with people who can help you achieve your goals when it comes to digital marketing. That's what PCG digital does best. If you want a true partner helping connect your message to more customers than you need to reach out to PCG digital. Maximize your marketing dollars with PCG digital. Go to PCG digitalcom for more information, and don't forget to mention D you're in charge podcast. Everyone finds themselves in charge at times in their lives. It could be a project, a team or even a business. Sometimes we want to lead, sometimes we are chosen, yet all eyes are upon us, and sometimes we feel alone and ask ourselves, now what? Now? What do I do? Well, that's where we come in. My name is Glen Pash and each week I share inspiring conversations with successful leaders who will share their journeys, tips and strategies to help you become the leader that you want to be. Welcome to you're in charge now what. So welcome back, so happy you join me again on another episode of the you're in charge now what podcast. Today we're going to talk about sales it's one of those topics that I think everyone is intrigued by, everyone is frustrated by, you know, hiring salespeople, training sales people, getting a great process together, understanding your customers, how to communicate now there's multiple platforms. How do you connect with them everywhere? Can Be overwhelming and a little bit frustrating. So today I brought in very special guests Dan Englander. He is the owner of a company called Sales Schema. He helps organizations with sales, both from a process strategy development course, as well as also helping them if this organization needs some people on the phones or reaching out to some of their clients to get sales started or getting that pipeline started, his company can help as well. He's also the host of the digital agency growth podcast, so I'm excited to start listening in on that as well. Wonderful Individual, lot of very good tactical things that you're going to take away from this conversation to help your organization really thrive and really look at your whole sales process in a completely different light. He talks about something called relationship sales and how that really works why it's important in today's market. So let's dive in to today's episode of you're in charge now what with Dan Englander of Sales Schema. All right. So so Dan, let's just dive right into the sort of elephant or the burden that every single company has, and that is sales. And I very rarely have ever run across anyone who's happy and says, Oh, I got it all figured out. So to leadle off your your company helps people in sales. So when you're out there and someone raises their hand and you come in and you sit down with them, what are some very common either struggles or mistakes that companies are making in regards to sales? Yeah, Glenn, I thinks day for having me and that's that's a really good starting question, I think. I mean, I think the biggest one that we see is we get somebody that either doesn't have the time or the motivation to do it. You know, maybe they've like inherited this role, or somebody thinks that sales can be kind of like this this halfway and halfway out, kind of roll right, right, right, right, and that's that. And I'm not saying that sometimes, you know, if you're an owner or you're the small business, that's just the way it is. I'm not saying that you can't wear multiple hats. I'm just saying that know what the job is and know what you're doing. And sometimes I was on a call you yesterday was somebody and they were like never I'm not really into sales and I really want to get sales training. I don't really want to like is work, committed to it. But yet somebody from higher up had said you're the new salesperson. Right. So it was like how did this Ha what did I think is going to happen? Right, so that hopefully, you know, most people are beyond that, but that's that's one thing that we see. I think. I think beyond that, you know, once we do have somebody that's committed in a sales role. I think when we say the word sales, that's like it's like a dozen different skill sets. Right. The process of teeing up meetings at scale and building lists and dealing with the software and the copy and all that is like, you know, completely different skill set than the person that is presenting, which is a different skill set than the person that might be working on a proposal. You know, like there's so many different things they...

...go into that. So the answer is the other thing that's happening is there's like this kind of Lone Wolf thing where it's like I'm going to hire this full stack sales person that's going to solve all my problems, which is which is also silly because, like in any process to do anything meaningful, there's a division of duties. Like you, I know you work along with car dealers, right, you don't have one person building the whole car. You Know Roun, and it's actually funny. I'll get sor I'll give you the floor and sect, but I'm just one last thing. I think we actually use the car metaphor a lot and then we're more in to BTB space. But what we see a lot of the Times is the people will hire the driver before they have the car. Right. So they'll really like, I'm going to go get this closer, is going to solve all my problems, but I don't really have a car for them to drive. So what do they do? They say, here's some sales class and a roll. They send them off out of the cold. Nine months later that person sucked, you know. Yeah, they got US eatings and stuff that then the pan out where it's like they might have sucked, but you also didn get well, I think there's two things I want to dive into. Their one is to be, to be and BTC. But before we jump into that, that's a very interesting point because when you're starting out a company, you know, and it's you and your few band of Merry Merry men and women who are starting your right. Every someone may have to do the collateral and the calls and the presentations and the proposal and all that, but for most organizations you're right, it really is a different skill set and and maybe that's something that you know if you're leading a team, for those of you listening, if you're leading a team, do you have the right people in the right positions? You know it's a different skill for someone who's just going to call and set up appointments versus then who's the one who comes in and, you know, does the presentation and then who does the paperworker, who chases the paperwork? We do have a tendency to hire that one person and hire them for one thing, put them in another position and they get frustrated and we blame them versus. Well, that closer is I don't want to say above it or beyond it, but they're probably not cold calling someone, they're not prospecting. Those are your closers and there is that, that that frustration, I'm sure. So how do you recommend again? But let's put the new company aside, because that's a completely different animal. But if you're advising a team, what what are if you had to set it up like, what would your perfect team be? Yeah, and we're a little bit unorthodox. So they give context. We are often taking the over the part of of the BBR. Right, we're right, like an outsource PDR model. But even if people never hire us, I think the way that we found to work as a little bit as a little bit different, and they took a frame it out. So I can answer your question or a philosophies. Like we did the call that reach game for four years. You know, we write every tactic under the sun, we did the funnels, we did every channel, we did every videos, we know all these things. And Yeah, it kept declining, you know, it kept it just didn't work that well, even when we had clients that really had their stuff together. That great case studies and all that stuff just didn't work. So then we hit this wall and then we started experimenting with more of this relational process that we now call relationship sales. Its scale and in a nut show, you know it's so it maps with the way that a lot of our clients to build their companies over the years by using their networks. The differences is that scale elements. So, for example, we might have a client that's looking to reach a certain type of business. We have this list of accounts and then we're deciding, who do you know that know somebody in those accounts and you know who like. How can we reach out to those people? You know, to get referred to specific people? Or what if we were to reach out directly to that decisionmaker and say hey, we know these same people. So very awes very much like the way linkedin started. Like you, yeah, I couldn't connect to someone unless someone introduced you or was the connector versus. Now what Linkedin is basically just a social network. But that that's really interesting. You're going back to leveraging net work and introductions versus the cold coal knocking on the door. Right, and we do do direct outreach, but we don't necessarily call it cold I reach because, for example, like one of the craziest campaigns we did is we found people to play tennis in college, you know. So we said Hey, this room is CMO as, I used to play tennis in college to at this university. Saw You played, you know, tennis Ain State or whatever. We would love to connect. So it doesn't necessarily have to just be through referrals, but it's some sort of strong personal or business commonality of all sins on account based off a we used to do a lot of work with IBM. So I used to work at IBM and now your Microsoft or right. But it's those sort of like almost tribal like connections that I think build a lot more trust in order to get the door open, as opposed to just this like endless onslaught of information, right. So to kind of like tie that back to your question, I think even if people never hire us, the way to think about that is this division of duties and more of like a small team at the top of the funnel, as opposed to this like lowly Bedr what behind the...

...years person right, that Cliche, this BDR is going to go open all these doors and solve by problems. I think that if you have something really brand sprint, spank and new like software. Maybe that can work. I'm not saying the teams aren't making that work, but I think it's getting harder. Right. So what we recommended. I wrote a book about this that's coming out soon. They'll plug relationship, sales, it scale. Same names of the book. I know I'd mentioned that earlier, but but it covers how to do this yourself, and I think the way to do that is having a face of the campaign. Right. See, you might have outreach that is being conducted by BTR or somebody that's turning the KNOBS for you, but to have a partner that's at least willing to get on that first call, to do like a bit ton past, because you're just going to get more and better meetings. It doesn't have to be a partner, but somebody that's that's senior enough, right. Yeah, and there's a lot more to that. A lot of it from there is about balancing personalization and scale. Right. So the numbers game dynamic is still there. It's still numbers game. You know, you can't send out three pieces of outreach and expect anything to happen per day, right, but the numbers have changed, right, so for contacts. We might be contacting fifty, you know, hundred people, two hundred people Max for Business Day, and that means we can personalize allowed of that I reach and also have the scale. So it's the numbers are pressed know, that make that makes complete sense. You know, the way we grew our business, my brother and I, was a combination. You know, this was probably ten, twelve years ago in the digital space. They had forums and you go on the forums in type, you know, very much like clubhouse, but typing and, you know, posting articles in industry magazines or speaking at events. And now we host events and now with hosting webinars or writing articles and having these the these types of face to face interactions, you're not really selling the product, but you're selling yourself. To your point is the relationship where someone will say they seem very smart, and so now you have an anchor to say, well, you came to the event. It gives you permission to reach out. So then for those individuals who are on sales teams and they're going to say again, this goes back to the be tobb TOC combination, because I still think it's similar. You know, how do you try to personalize you know, I think you still if you're, you know, in the case of all at a motive, you know, ask them questions that you would ask them if they were standing right in front of you. You know, start getting questions so that you can respond. In that case, a lot of times people are reaching out to you, so that gives you permission to reach back out. But what do you see? IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BE TOB and BBC, or do you really think it there really is any difference? Yeah, it's a really good question. I think there's less of a difference than people make it out to be. I mean, if anything, I think be to be we kind of like trick ourselves into thinking for somehow more rational than consumers. Are Right, you know, bebb can be just as a rational and I think that, with what what we do, if they were at the forefront of us being able to see that that trend where, you know, a lot of the things that make meetings happen or not, this like that. You know, this this ingestion of data and information to make a own and well informed decision to talk to somebody. It's really like, Oh, with the same college other they're from my hometown. You know, it's stuff like that. It's it's that sort of connection. So I don't think the difference is massive. I think what's different is the sales process and what tactics you you want to use. Right. I think a lot of the times, if you're and your consumers, it's more of a volume play. You need to you need to like you can't be spending so much time with every person and you need to be playing. The numbers have to get bigger because you know it be to be process. You can afford to have somebody on like a five step sales process, right, and an auto maybe it's a little more like that. There's some more crossover because the deal sizes are bigger or something like but I must have an expert there. But I think that's that's the main thing. It's just kind of like the volume of leads you need and like these this tactical stuff, but once you're on the phone with somebody, it's the same wiring. We all have no and I but but to your point, I think that that is a key that I see a lot of people miss. You know, it's one thing if I'm talking to you. I think once any salesperson who's good at what they do once they're in front of someone. It's just natural. It seems natural. I can see you, I can hear you, I can watch you, and now we're having a conversation. I can see where I lose you. Even on the phone, I can hear your motion. You know, now with video calls, it's when you're marketing to them or you're emailing to someone. If it's not engaging or if it's not really asking a question, that moves the conversation forward. You're right. I call it closed questions, where it's Hey, call me Dan if you have any questions. Well, okay, then why would you ever call me back again, because I don't have any questions, versus, you know, asking you questions. You know, in the case of a car, are you trading something in is? Have you driven one of these for or if it's any other product, have you use these speakers...

...before? Have you use these headphones before? What type of headphones you're looking are you looking for travel and all of those things that you probably ask if they were in in your store with you, and I think that's where that personalization can start. Moving to your point is, once I get answers, then I can pivot. Oh, I'm going to travel. Ah, where do you like to travel? I travel, you know. Now you're starting to, like you said, try to uncover a relationship. But I'm wondering from when you see that, even from a B toob space, is it all just we're constantly selling, selling, selling product, product, product, why my products better versus? To your point, is asking questions to engage someone? Yeah, it's really good question. I don't think there's there's one way to do it right. You could have the copy, could say anything. It can be work in a lot of different situations and people ask, you know, long copy, short copy. That's less important, I think, for for us. Yeah, like for most of our clients selling, you know, six seven figure engagements, often the agency space selling, so selling the brands or whatever. Would they're not going to be able to hit somebody up and say hey, buy this thing right now, unless they're only unless they're only relying on look, which could happen right if you said enough our reach, somebody could have a need and then they're going to be willing to talk. But that's not really sustainable long term. So what we're trying to do with all of our outreach and I think this applies across the board. Is just simply d risk that first conversation, and there's a lot of ways to D risk. I think the way the people often go wrong is that they assume that to selling the product of the service is going to be the thing. The D risk that conversation as opposed to the human one to one connection that you have with somebody. And this might be a little bit different, you know, depending on the context. But a lot of the Times I think what we hear a lot about is nobody's going to want to take this call right. They want to do miles of research first before they talk to me. Right. How much over we heard that the aids of the Internet, it's all right, all the battles won before they gets to the phone. And Yeah, sometimes that's the case. There might be some people that want to do a lot of research, but I think increasingly that's a huge pain for buyers, for especially for a professional buyers like they don't really yes, they have that information of their fingertips, but sifting through it is such a pain. Right, really, what they're worried about is is having their time wasted and getting like an awkward interaction that they're going to get sold something. So right, you can just reduce that risk for them, even if it's like through something that's more a motive. Right, like we have this connection. We're in the same tribe. You know, tried can have very negative or very positive connotations. That can be that can be enough sometimes. So that's when I think again, you know what, when you're saying all of this, my brains just sparking into a million different directions because it's so true. I think, you know I've said this before, is that I think what happened before was whoever sell the product right, you had all the information. I had to come to you to understand the information. You're the keeper and to have to build trust that what you're telling me is correct. Now, the age of the Internet, yes, all of this informations out there, but I think we've also gone to to what you had just said, to this point of saturation where there's so much information. Now I'm back to who do I believe online and really what they're looking for from you is the expert to say I know that's a lot out there. Let me help you understand this, let me point you in the right direction, let me answer your questions without being offended or oh, these smart customers think they know everything because they internet. I think people are just too overwhelmed and all they're looking for someone to help them, which goes back to your point, which is why I love what you're calling that, that idea of relationship sales, which is, I know it's crazy, I know this is big purchase, I know it's complicated, let me help you. Yeah, and often in this kind of gets a little more vague. I think it's being able to say all those things that I reach without actually saying the explicitly right, right, like through implication, like we have this connection, we're doing this thing, we should talk all that other stuff. They know, like they've been they're buying stuff all day. They know the song and dance and what's going to happen. But you'd have you at least subcommunicated that you're not going to waste their time or put them through something that's going to be annoying. You know right. It's to have that and then you have that connection and then you're reengaging people and doing all the good habits that you should be doing, and then they're going to buy from you. You know, that's by large. That's kind of the idea. Yeah, yeah, I think. I think, and you've said it multiple times, and I think it's really key for those of you listening to just don't skip over. You know, what Dan saying here is the idea of valuing your customer or the prospect, whoever you're talking to, valuing their time, because it's you know, if you start wasting people's time with acting like you're not prepared or or talking...

...down, you know, out of sorts, or trying to show off, whatever it is. I love your word d risking. I think you're increasing the risk that that phone is going to disconnect. They're not going to respond back. They may be polite this time, but you're never going to get back to them because all they did was go this was a complete waste of my time. Versus you were prepared, you were helpful, you moved it a law based on the training that you have received to help you sell, which leads me into sort of this pivot. I'd like to Pivo a little bit. So this idea of training. So I want you to switch your hat for a moment because a lot of people who are listening, as I said earlier, maybe in charge of something. You know. Again, it could be a project, could be an initiative, it could be a team, could be the business. But a lot of times, to your point earlier, someone gets promoted. Sometimes they're promote it for the wrong reason. You know, you're just because you're a great salesperson doesn't make you a great team leader or sales manager of the team. But in that arena now putting the hat on of that person who's training. What metrics? You know, and again, every metric could be. I mean every team might have slightly different metrics. But if I'm managing and coaching a team, what should I be looking at? How can I help my team improve without feeling like a micromanaging or just, you know, looking over their shoulder? What would you recommend? Yeah, it's really good question. I mean, I think that the biggest thing is just sort of owning the fact that you least as a part time job, maybe even a ten or twenty our reach. Ob you're now a sales trainer. Right, you're and and that means that you're training people like a personal trainer would. So You're devoting enough time, you're getting the right resources from people, which are usually going to be call recordings and that kind of thing, and you're you're probably doing a role playing exercise and your fine, you're fine tuning a script. I think we hear a lot of Oh, I don't want to use a script, that I'm not a robot. No, no, the words you use matter, you know, saying one thing one way versus another has completely different implication. The order of what information is presented really matters. These are specifics that don't get ironed out on their own unless you kind of iron and out deliberately. Now, how people want to say things might differ a little between the person and you know they have to own it. That felt a pal that they're saying, but I think that that's sort of level of like blocking and tackling and specificity is is the most most important thing, and I think a lot of the times when we see is like nobody's really like taking the lead on that. They're like this person, she just come and know how to know how to do that. And the fact is the best sales people that we've ever encountered like the fastest, the Michael's Jordan of sales ramps up is still going to be at least a few months. You know right on any given new offer or market or whatever. So that's the first thing. In terms of metrics. I think there's different schools of thought on this and yeah, a lot of it's going to be contextual, but I mean what's worked for us is thinking about it in terms of falsifiable metrics. So you don't you don't fool yourself. Like one of the words I hate most is qualifying right, like right, you ask ten different people, you get to different if it is a call right, quality, with the same the same idea, engage, like there's always vague greies. We just use right, right, right, right. What I like is you know actions that people have taken. Have they responded? It's a yes or no question. Responded positively, let's say. If it's obviously up to say felf off, that's negative. But you know you can make a judgment call. I guess, meeting books. That's pretty falsi viable. Depending on your cycle, you might have a proposal call, so that's the next call after that, and then are all the decision makers going to show up or not? You know, that's pretty falsi viable. And then a deal being signed, a piece of papers as also possibviable. So I think if you think about it in terms of those metrics, you'll be able to you know, Wuch performance over over enough time. Yeah, and so what I loved about that, and again, folks, hope you're listening, that using the word trainer, like you said, a personal trainer. I love always using the word coach because manager as a tendency. We all think of a manager behind a desk if we played sports in school. I always ask the teams that I've been brought in to talk to and say how many of you played sports? A lot of raisor hands. They said, well, where was your coach during practice? Where was your coach during the game? Right, and a lot of times. To your point, and I love just taking a bit of time because that will be pushed back. People are well, I can't do no, but if you're there for x number of hours, if you said twenty percent of my work week, whatever that is, is dedicated to training and developing. I still have other duties, but it is that coaching and I love that. You know, we have steps. Every company has their step, everybody has their way of presenting and that has to be ironed out. So when you bring someone in. It is not a gift, you know, I meaning like you were...

...born with this. I remember I was an actor for a long time and I remember sitting there listening to other actors go all the directors squashing my creativity, you know, and the director would say, well, these are the words that you have to say and you also have to be over on the side of stage when you say that line, or it makes no sense. You thinking, I'll just wander around like and actually, the more structured you were, it was counterintuitive. The more structured you were, the freer you were because you knew where you had to be at what time. So very similar to what you're saying. If I know my order of presentation and I know my product, I can actually sit and listen and not worry because I know where I'm going next or I know where I have to pivot. That's that confidence. But that only comes through, and that's why I like the word the personal trainer. It only comes through with someone who's going to dedicate time to getting better at these skills, and it does take time, but it has to be consistent. You need a coach to watch what you're doing and give you feedback. I really love that. But to that point, then, when you get in, is that one of the things that's usually missing? If someone calls you up and says we're struggling at sales, is that one of the first places you look and say, well, here's your problem, you're not training your people? It's a good question. It's it is it mean it was when we were working with much smaller organizations. I think it's less now, but there's still are often various gaps the people have. I think that the biggest issue is, like, you know, you want that closer to be spending at least eighty percent of probably ninety percent of his or her time closing deals of like getting as people. So and that's where we come in and we're kind of like the top of the funnel. Need there. But yeah, I mean we do see that often where the organization is never really had to figure out how to specifically order their pitch because they've survived on referrals and these sort of things for along. The kind of allow you to get away with what bad habits right because you went by the time you're encountering an opportunity, they their solution, aware, they know what they want and you come in with that trust, which is great. Like, by all means do everything you can to increase the number of referrals you get, but that's a tough way to build scalable sales tour right. So when we've gone through this to ourselves, we recently hired a salesperson. She's done really well. She unfortunately left to pursue an entrepreneurial opportunity. But we were on the right track and it took me even us, and we do outbound sales all day. We there's still a lot of questions that we had to figure out about scripting, and that's where we're a lot of the hard work plan was just going back and forth, back and forth, and maybe this should go there, actually it should come here. You know, do right that that sort of thing all day and but there's nothing that's more more lucrative than that sort of work, I think. No, and and and so again, folks listening, it's that trainer. It's mapping things out so that you have a plan. I mean it's very odd that we would disown that's hard to say because the New York sports teams are very frustrating at this moment in time. But you know, if they just ran around without a playbook, you would say these people don't know what they're doing. But yet for some reason we think it's okay for a salesperson to not have a playbook, to not have a script, to not have boundaries that and then we wonder why they're frustrated, why they're not generating results. I think that's really important. But I also really liked what you were saying earlier is understanding the actions. It takes right so you know once you get to that funnel of you know, presentation or demonstration in the proposal, one out, we're a go. But even back further to say what am I doing every day? What actions am I taking to engage? Is it phone calls? Is it emails, isn't mark whatever it is. Understanding that as a leader of that team, then you can start to pull the levers because if we're getting a lot of demonstrations but we're not getting to proposals, will we got to go fix that. If we know what our percentage is, well, if we do x number of proposed you know, if we do ten demonstrations, we should send out seven proposals and all of a sudden this person is sending out three, you're going, okay, they're off, but I need to know the metrics or even how many phone calls are, how many prospects? I need to really work to generate those demonstrations. And all of a sudden we're going, wait a minute, that means I have now I have to go target that training to listen what they're saying to see why, oh, they're off script. Right. So I think it's really important for and for again, audience. What Dan saying here is it's really important to have that structure of what someone should be doing, but knowing the metrics that are going to generate that end result. Like working backwards, right, every deal we got to have to two contracts, get one deal. We ought to have for demonstrations to get to contacts and we have to have this many to get that many, and you back it out. Now you have the ability to see...

...who's struggling where. Now your time as a trainer is better served. Would you agree? Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree, and I think that a lot of the times, like would in our world, will be say hey, you'd processing all the stuff people like. They flip out and they said great, I'll go, I'll go develop this stuff. But it's kind of like that. You know, the Mike Tyson line's that everybody has a plan to let a function the mouth sort of things you need. You need enough going in the top of the funnel to inform you know what's to form these materials. They don't come out of nothing and often that that means if you're starting from, you know, a place of not having the stuff put together, it's kind of a less as more situation. It's think about what what's gone right, and then you know, add to that as you need and add to make the funnel more, like longer and more complicated as needed. was supposed to start right, right, and and and and again. I I want to harp on this, just to touch because I think it's key. Is this idea of having everything mapped out. What should your sales people be saying? What should be first and or second and or third? Because randomness, you know, you may sell and you could say, well, look, I sold, but you're never going to scale on. If I have ten people on my sales team and everybody's doing it their own way, how am I supposed to lead a team? I can't remember what ten people's process is versus. No, this is the way we do it here and get everyone aligned and then their personality layered on top. I used to always say if I strip away everybody's you know, the way they do everything, the technique underneath should pretty much be the same. What layers on top of it is your personality. You may be more talkative than I am, or you're you know, you have a better sense of humor than I do, whatever it is, but we all hit our steps. We may weave them a little differently, but we hit our steps. That's that's the structure for success and that allows you, I think, to scale to your point, or else you're going to hit a plateau eventually, a frustration or churn of finding salespeople that can do this if you don't have a structure for them to to execute. Yeah, and in the you know, the best salespeople on earth that you interview, if they're really good, they're going to convince you to hire them, whether or not you have all that process there, and then they often will go to a greener pasture or if they're not good enough, you'll just not, you know, make your money back on those peoples. So having that, knowing that even if you're building that for the first time, like knowing that that need, that building block needs to be there is important. And if that, if you're in an ownership position or senior position, that might mean you sitting in that seat at least for a little while right order to build out that process before you hire that that closer just to do everything now and I and again, I think we make a mistake and I'd love your feedback from what you see, but I think a lot of people make the mistake that they think everybody's the closer right, everybody's that great, and I actually think differently. I think if I have a call it the middle sixty, if I have ten people, I'm going to have two people that are just rock stars. They get it natural, like that natural gift of Gab and they do what we need him to do. But there's just something different about and then you got the other bottom twenty, either new people coming in or people going out. But that middle sixty needs that structure. They rely on that structure. And if you we make a mistake thinking all of those people are going to we can get them all to be superstars, and probably not. But if I could get all of them to sell one more versus I need you to go from selling two deals a month to ten deals a month. Those people are going, I can't do this and they'll quit. Versus really honing, and I think that's the key, and I think that's one thing that's missing in a lot of sales teams is that structure, because those middle sixty need it and they're depending on it and want it. And if you have it, then I think you really can scale, because those people will be successful because they just want to come in and do what you told them to do and and they're and they're successful. Versus, I don't want to come in and every day it's something new and something different. Yeah, those top two people people, they can do the adapt, but that middle sixty, you end up blowing people out because you keep changing things on. Yeah, exactly, and I think related to there's like to two areas that, if you don't mind me just vining about the no you here. I think the first is something to the effect of and was is more than the be to bed space. I think of the car, you know, automotive. Yeah, like these gotta sell some cars here. People like that's try and true. You know, people can know what that's about. But in the be theb space, specially in agencies, there's what I see a Blat. Is this sort of like no, you...

...know, I'm a special snow for like nobody can snow sell, but but, but me. We're not like other organizations. We can't scale sales teams. Right, you know, it's got to be different for each client. It's got to be this. And I'm just like looking out. You know, I'm here in New York. You're not too far. There's this skyline of buildings of you know, complex service businesses and scale did multinational levels by building sales. Seems like. Why do you think? I'm not saying you have to become multinational, but right, why do you think you're any different? Is that's the first one. The other one, which I think you hear a lot about from sort of like disruption based books and journalists, people that didn't really business owners or never had to hire anyone. It's a lot of this sort of take of interviews. Don't matter how many times you hear this. Right performance is not. Is Not correlated with interview performance and all this stuff, and it's like, you really dig into the data, these people are presenting and it's like they're looking at these broad averages across like low, low skill level jobs. So, for one, like whoever wants average performance? If you're hiring anybody, you want above average. And interviews are great. Interviews tell you a lot, as do references to you know, and like we've really put a lot more energy and interviews and it's never going to get you to a hundred percent hiring success, but it's going to write your odds. And you know, if you make a good hire versus a bad high hire, that's a callous amount of money, though. Anyway, I'm probably preaching to the choir, but it's just one of those things that irritates me when I either know. But I think this is key because the audience out there is listening because, as I said earlier, we I started this podcast because a lot of people were put in positions to lead a team and they're looking around going I need help, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to hire. Is Hiring. You know, I wasn't interviewed right. So a lot of times it's well, I was never interviewed or I was never trained, so why do I have to train someone in reality, you don't understand that actually interviewing is the key and understanding what questions to ask to find the right people that are going to be willing to do the work right. That's the key. Is I could sell, but every business, their process is different. What how to get to that sale may be different. Right. If I'm working, I've hired salespeople and I've made tons of mistakes where someone said, Oh, I worked at this company, I was very successful selling. But to your point, they were closer. They they came in after someone teed it all up or even after the proposal was out. No, but I need somebody to be on the phones to do more of the as you said, the the entry level or the the prospecting or the farming, so to speak, and they'll, if you're not clear, to say no. That's what I need you to do. You end up hiring incorrectly and then you to your point. You wasted your time, you waste their time, you wasted money, frustrating and then all you're doing is wow. I then, I think, you really do get into the point of saying I can't scale a team because you haven't thought everything through, you're not presenting to the candidate what exactly you need to do, like paint the picture of their day to day, paint the picture of a typical week, and if you really say no, this is what you do every single day, and if someone goes yeah, cool, okay, I got it, then there's no misunderstanding. Right exactly. And even just drilling down to the top of the funnel, not even the closer, but the shower, the PHONEL, which is getting people to agree to speak. There's like three different skill sets there and in our in our experience, there's a creativity or strategy. You know, this is the high level stuff that you need maybe an owner or a high level person to think about, which is who our clients you know. How are we converting into minds out of the tactics I talked about earlier? You know, relationships and whatnot. There's there's systems, thinking and technical skills that go into the list, building the software or how whether you're using phone or email or linkedin or past ranger, pigeon or whatever's there's systems that go into that. And then there's there's a good amount of hustle. Right, somebody that is going to be on the ball. That's somebody's it's flakes, you know, they calling them up to get them back ont of the calendar again, right, and that sort of thing. And those those are like three different skill sets and three different jobs and depending on the size of your team, you know, you might have to wear multiple hats. But even just that top of funnel, like Betr Role, the idea that you're going to like hire one person and they're going to know how to like build list but also cold call, like maybe, but it's unlikely, you know. So the ideas like if you're hiring I roll, you're supporting them, like you're putting time towards them those sorts of tasks. Yeah, great, yeah, I mean I could, I could chat with you all day. So let one last pivot before we ask our closing five questions that we always do. So tell me about you, like how did you end up here? Like, if I roll back to my son now is in eleventh grade and Nice, saw in ten grade a sort of a switch. So let's say ten grade, eleven grade, Dan, similar to who you are now. Something change if you look back and you go, Oh, yeah, this was always in me or whatever, like how...

...did you end up doing this? Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't know. I mean I was never the the the like, you know, entrepreneurs day kid, they coming up with business ideas or whatever. I think that for me I mostly just was terrified of the monotony of being stuck in a job and having to do the same thing every day and having asked somebody for permission to go on vacation and all that sort of stuff. Right, course, the constant and irony is like you're not working more, then you might have a standard three, two four week vacation. So so that that was me. And you know, I what to college or u see Santa Cruz, kind of moved to New York, works some internships and stuff lander than the agency space, got another job in sales and then eventually just quit. Didn't the Tim ferrist thing for a while. Self published business books. I did the whole like course thing on you to me and and then realize that, okay, the thing that I kind of knows sales people need help with Leegijen, so let me make this Legion company. So it was kind of just sometimes I jokingly liken it to the format of breaking bad but not negative. It's not criminal where it's like he's just making these decisions and then there's right, right, right, right, another, but there's never like a grand strategy. So that's that's been my experience. Anyway, that's great. That's great. Yeah, I mean I always ask that question and it's always interesting. Sometimes people don't think about it, you know, like through all of their jobs there's this common thread. You know, forget the title, forget where you work, you know, and I say, well, is there some common thread? And people go no, one never asked me that, but there was. There was always this and or completely different. Someone says I you know, I started this way and then I went that way. So it's a fascinating thing to ask people, you know, how they move because, you know, the days of staying in a job forty, fifty, sixty years and retiring is less and less and less and there are so many options out there for people to pivot and try new things. But to say all the elder sales, you know. Yeah, and I'm sure we do a whole other episode on that, but yeah, I think I think it's definitely changing. You know, I was kind of cart a lot of a lot of these bootstrapped digital nomad entrepreneur communities. I think we all thought we were special for a while, but right, you know, then the world changed overnight and now it's sort of like what there's there's less of this dividing line, I think, between entrepreneur and employee. There still is, you know, starting your own businesses is no small feed. But you know this idea that like, I'm going to be my own boss. It's like no, you start a business, you work with other people, you collaborates other people who are right. Yeah, now that I think it's I agree. I think it's changed. I mean when I was growing up on older and you are, but you know having your own business, sometimes people looked at it a little odd like Oh, because you couldn't go work at atnt or you couldn't work at the big company, so you started your own. where? Now Entrepreneurship is cool. But to your point is I don't think people understand all of the INS and outs. They just think Oh, free time, and you start going, Oh, I haven't taken a vacation a while, or I'm working all the time or I'm always something's always happening, there's always something to do to move it forward, versus I can go leave for three weeks vacation, two weeks vacation. I'll see you and I don't have to think about work till I come back in, you know, the day after my vacation ends. You know. Yeah, it for better worse, it changes you and it's a yeah, your business is always kind of worth you, at least for me anyway. Na listening it for me to so you know, you understand that. So listen. This was a lot of fun. So the end of every episode we I ask five questions. They're all focused on the one thing. So don't overthink them, just go so, let me read. Get my glass here. So we did. Okay. So what's the one thing that you can't live without? So one thing you need with you or you always have to have. What's the one thing you can't live without? Yeah, for me it's exercise, I think in the form of grappling and like Brazilian Jujutsu and wrestling, is kind of my main wave. It's not just exercise, it's the gamification of it and it's, you know, it's very, very addictive. If I'm traveling, I got to find somewhere to train. After a couple days I'm I'm going to Haycring for that. So that that's it for me. Yeah, for better or words. No, I have ad I have a team member. Yeah, have a team member does the same thing. So when we travel, we're there for a couple days, he's like, I have to go find someplace to train. You know, he needs it for his classity, as he says, more for his for his body, but he says it's really for my mind to really stay sharp. Okay, next one. What is one of the things that you value most in other people? That's it's that's really your question. I think that the big one is is just kind of like intellectual honesty. I think more and more, you know, just being being willing to in where it's not like I'm perfected...

...this either, but it's something that I pick up on. Is just being able to, you know, admit when you're wrong or say or or or honestly challenged me on things right, being able, like I grew up in a household I was, you know, Jewish family and lawyer Dad, and so we'd argue constantly. So I'm used to argue with people. So I think that kind of goes hand in hand with that and it's not it's not a bad thing. It's not destructive. Always can be, but I don't know, I like that. Let's see, if I gathered all of your friends in family into a room and ask them to describe you in one word, what's the word they would use to describe you? And that's a good question. I've heard. This is just because I've heard this recently from a number of different sources, and I've heard easygoing, which I give a lot but in my in my own head, I don't feel that at all. So I don't know if it's true, but at least outwardly I seem to get that. So Lot. Okay, so that's all right. What's a book or a movie that inspires you that you always go back to? Like a book that you either read Multiple Times or if somebody says, Hey, I need a good book that's going to help me in my life or business? What's a book you would recommend, or movie or podcast or something that inspires you it? Yeah, I think that, like, there's probably a lot, but I think the one that I found is lf going back to is is war of art by Stephen Pressfield. It's just sort of broadly applicable and it has the right amount of woo without too much. We move stuff right. It's you know, it's actionable, but it's not, but it's also just very inspiring and, yeah, in compelling, I think so. I think it's very readable and short, so great. I like that. Bokal Iyah, good will link it. Will link it in the show notes for everybody so they can go get that last one. We've talked about a lot of different things here today, Dan, and all great stuff and very, very really appreciate the time you took because your answers are really thoughtful and very tactical. But if you would hope that the listeners took one thing away from this whole conversation, one thing they could take away, what is that one thing that you want them to go if you got one thing out of our conversation, this is it. Yeah, it's a good question, I think. I think the biggest one is basically focusing on those bigger like high leverage activities. Right, prioritization, I guess, is the main thing. And you could drill down to any sort of situation, right. That couldn't mean who you're hiring and so on one. So I don't know if that that sums everything up enough. But you know, that's that's the thing that comes to mind, which is prioritization in terms of who am I contacting, how am I contacting them? WHO's doing this as opposed to getting stuck with the software or was some various tactic even attack this I've talked about. I wouldn't even think about that before prioritizing the big stuff. I can plug one more book now place, but some please else. Is One that's really helped me recently with this is the road less stupid by Keith coming half. Love the DIDRO. It's a great title, it's great but basically he's really good at laying out questions or encouraging me to Rehear, to ask good questions about, you know, his or her business. So that's that's been good for my prioritization, I think great. Yeah, and I love that because I think that was one of my reinforced and reminded me of, you know, some of the things I talked about. But even a good thing for me and my team to rethink and just say is everything mapped out at that point every so that we know what we're supposed to be doing, because we got hire the best people, but if we have them either in the wrong position, doing the wrong thing, chasing the wrong audience, nobody wins. So you need to constantly remind that mind yourself and it and it potentially it could evolve and or chain. So constantly have to look at it and refine it so that you're always being more effective. So Great. So again and Dan, thank you so much for being here this this has been a lot of fun. So please tell the audience how they can connect with you, where they can find you, you know, company wise and or so personally, to reach out if people have questions or we just want to connect. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I'm we're good. Really appreciate it. So the best way is sales, schemacom. We actually have a weapon are that goes through a lot of the stuff, if anyone's interested, which is just saleschemacom relationships, puirl and my I'm always happy to, you know, nerd out with anybody on the stuff. I just Dan it, SALESCHEP itcom is my...

...my email or weak down. Great, great, yea, and will put all that in the show notes as well. All right. So again, thank you so much. This has been phenomenal and I'm sure the audience listen. Folks, you hope you had your pen and paper next to you and then then go back and listen to this over and over and over again, because Dan gave you a lot of information. So, as we say always, I thank you for your time. Please make sure, if you found value today, that you subscribe to the show. Share it out. I'm sure there's someone in your network that could benefit from what Dan was talking about today to help there, you know, their business themselves, get more organized. So please make sure you share it out. Don't forget to rate the PODCAST. If you want to watch the episode, you can jump over to youtube or you can listen to it on apple or spotify or wherever you listen to podcast. We are there. Just type in Ur in charge and you will find it again. I appreciate your attention. I know there's a lot of places for you to listen to different shows and get your information, but the fact that you spend some time with Dan and me means the world. So, as I say at the end of every episode, you're in charge. But whenever you start saying to yourself, now, what? Now, what do I do? But we're here to help you every single week with guests like Dan to give you tap tactics and tips to help you become better both personally and professionally. So thanks so much for listening. I look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Again Dan, thank you so much. It's not that appreciate it.

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