"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch
"You're In Charge" with Glenn Pasch

Episode 139 · 4 weeks ago

How to Build Trust in Your Organization with Brian Kramer


Building trust in your organization can be a challenge. Let alone taking over a team or being placed in a position of leadership. There can be so many mistakes made, many without your knowing it.

Brian Kramer, a leader in automotive for over 25 years shares his experience building multiple successful teams. He shares his three levels of trust, personal, technical and ethical trust. 

Too often we focus just on technical but Brian shares why all three are important to your success.

Great conversation. Enjoy it

Don't forget to review us, share the episode and subscribe so you don't miss these great conversations. 

Brian's book recommendation: Bob Iger Ride of a Lifetime


About Brian Kramer:

Automotive General Manager specializing in digital transformation with 26+ years of retail dealership experience. 19 years as a General Manager operating dealerships for Autonation and Germain Automotive Group. Experience managing Infiniti, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus, Toyota and Lincoln franchises in Ohio and Florida.

Recipient of the Automotive News “Top 40 under 40” award.

Delivered the first 100% paperless transaction in 2020, and recently delivered the first automotive transaction in the Metaverse.

Pioneer of digital and virtual automotive sales and service transactions, bridging the gap between the virtual showroom and the physical showroom.

Pioneering the Future of Virtual Automotive Retail in ways Virtually, Remotely, Physically & in the Metaverse.


Clubhouse: @briankramer

YouTube: @briankramer

Facebook: @briankramerfl

Instagram: @kramerbrian

About Glenn Pasch:

"Everyone finds themselves in charge at some point in their lives. Yet many of us lack the skills to generate consistent results. My goal is to help you learn the skills to adapt and grow in your personal and business life.”

Glenn Pasch is CEO of PCG Digital, a full service digital marketing agency that specializes in helping businesses create and deliver customers raving, recommending & returning for more. He is author of 2 books including "The Power of Connected Marketing" and has spoken and educated audiences throughout the US and internationally.

Let’s Connect:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glennpasch/

Personal Website http://glennpasch.com/

Company website: https://pcgdigital.com/

Support for this episode comes from PCG digital. As a business owner, you want to surround yourself with people who can help you achieve your goals when it comes to digital marketing. That's what PCG digital does best. If you want a true partner helping connect your message to more customers than you need to, reach out to PCG digital. Maximize your marketing dollars with PCG digital. Go to PCG digitalcom for more information, and don't forget to mention the you're in charge podcast. How do you build trust in an organization, especially when you're taking on the role of leader for the very first time with this group of individuals? If any of you have ever faced that challenge, or maybe you're on the other side, you're the team. When a new leader comes in, everyone is sort of looking at each other trying to figure each other out. Well, how do you actually build trust? Well, that's the question I pose to my guest today, Brian Kramer, who has been a leader in the automotive industry for years. He's been in the dealership, he's overseen multiple dealerships and he shares his failures and, more importantly, his success is how he's built consistent teams over and over and over again, by actually holding up the mirror, be able to embrace the chaos and dig down deep to you find that trust at its core and then start building up your structure, a stronger structure, in order for your team to move forward and to become more successful. Fascinating conversation. We touch on a lot of different things. We even have a few lass, which is fun because I do know Brian and I really am excited for you to hear this episode. So let's dive into today's episode of you're in charge. Now what with Brian Crane. Okay, Brian, first off, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. So let's just jump right in. I am fascinated. I've known you now for a few years, but what I'm most fascinated about what is your honesty, about your journey as a leader, from taking over different dealerships in various stages of success and trying to build this culture of consistency. And that's where I want to start, because I think there's people who jump into it or assigned a team and they're going this idea of culture, whatever that means. I'd rather talk about how do you help teams become more consistent. I think that's a better question to start with. So that's a great question. We just recently went through this with an acquisition that I was involved with, and it's easy to forget in a regardless of how many times you go through this, and this most recent one, and this is just a you can extrapolate it into any scenario. When you first acquire a new entity, there's low truck rust. Nobody knows what to expect from each other. And Trust, you know, like Stephen Cubby says, is the is the glue or the wd forty of relationships that can either make it go faster go slower. And for instance, that and that scenario, everybody thought that everybody had an agenda. So now you've got to size each other up, you've got to figure out is this for real? Who's putting me together, who's just putting on a show? And that's a time consuming process. You got to bust all that down in order to get to true trust if you want to go fast. And if you don't have that, people are questioning everything. They're questioning why is this happening? Will what about the old way? They're holding on to tradition, legacy, beliefs, even though they know that it's not necessarily the best way. And some of them have sunk causse bias because they built the processes themselves. So asking them to tear down what they built is they take it like a like a doing saying something negative out their child. Right. So so building that trust and and that thing is the first thing. But how do you build that right? Because you can't have trust unless everybody's comfortable confronting each other. So what I've always done is is go in...

...and a tell everybody. Look, clarity is going to be the number one, one of the little the core tenets of what we do here. And when I talk about clarity, it's the definition of being easily understood remembered in a very exact, precise way. Is What Merriam Dictionary describes it as. So if it's not, if everybody's not on the same page, which that takes a long time with everybody, because everybody, when you say hey, here's what we're going to do, we're going to do this and this and this is everybody have it, they're all going to nod their head because nobody wants to say no, I don't unless they are a strong leader, which, you know, most people don't have the confidence to say I don't know. So I think that's one of the core elements of delibrity. Know that it's safer to say that than it is to to have artificial harmony and omit the truth. They're not lying, but they're not also saying, Hey, I don't know, I need to go over that again. So all of those things, and that's really you know, recently all I've been doing is just trying to tear down those walls if you break, and that's as simple as I don't preaching the choir, but that's really as simple as it is. If you can encourage trust, which is it's not easy. Now, you can get that to happen, everything else takes care of itself, because everything is you know, brings you their problems and there and they overcorrected. Another rule that we have is a no daylight rule, and I learned that from Jim Bender, who used to be an Aldernation, who taught it to me in a very painful way. And all of these things I'm talking about explained, explain to me when that means no daylight. So no daylight would mean so let's say you and I were working together on a project and I would say glint is just say, you know, I need to have we needn't have no daylight between the two of us. If one of the sales people come up to you and they want to work a deal a certain way or they want to have you read look at a trade that I praised yesterday, just keep me in the loop. So there's no daylight. Okay. Now what happens is, you know, some people call mom and popping and yeah, all those sorts of things, but it's it's detrimental and it's counterintuitive because we as leaders, when I help our associate, so we look at it as we're helping and we're trying to help them along, but they're omitting certain facts that might not be to their benefit out of the equation. Or worst case scenario. This was Jim Tommy. I had a situation where he you know, I agreed to that with him and he kept on going into it. I said I got it, I got it right, and then I learned a hard way I didn't. So I had an associate that was doing something shouldn't have done. So I had suspended that person before I had time to write the report and, you know, uploaded to him. He the associate called human resources. Human Resources called him and said Hey, where are you aware that Brian Kramer did this? No, because that's impossible because we, he and I, have a no daylight rule. And so that he called me up and he said Hey, did you? I said Yeah, I was just about to call you. You know, it got very passionate from there. So I think that was not a pound s marker. But the interesting thing was he said, okay, now you you get to go through the process of everybody questioning everything, even though I believe you it's going to be four or five hours taken away from your day from this hijack, because I'm not going to lie to my team and say, Oh, I didn't know about that one. I didn't because because you didn't tell me. He said, all you had to do was tell me so I didn't get blindsided and every and we wouldn't be having this conversation. You would have five hours back tomorrow. So every time you have daylight between you and I. He was now I could if you would have called that would have said, oh, yeah, he just called me. Not a big deal, I'm in the loop. Don't worry about it. Right. I'm so and and there's so many examples that I see every single day, because most people say, why do I want to bring up a problem if we don't know for sure it's a problem? Let's roll the dice and ran. My odds are fifty rather than windell hardy. You know I've worked together for the longest time, but you know, we that's a core tenant of what we do. is No daylight with everybody. It's okay to make a mistake. It's okay. Hey, just so you know in case it comes up and he tells me four five things daily that never come to fruition. Maybe one out...

...of those per week ends up becoming an issue, but I'm never surprised, never blindside right now that I agree with you. I think that is really important. For one, if you are the leader or if you're a number two or on a team, you know there is that communication and I think there's a lot in there to unpack, but that that idea of well, I don't want to bother Brian with this. I'll take care of that. And that's not what the leaders saying to you. The leaders saying just keep me looked. I'm not going to get in your way. Go do it, but for some reason, if on that one instance I know something that you don't and that could color that decision, will now you're giving me the opportunity to save us all time because I could give you that feedback. One thing you started with and I wanted to clarify. You expand on it because, as they said, there's a lot in there. In the beginning, this idea of trust, I think from my perspective, because I've done it, I jokingly say, of taking mediocre teams and made him great, taking great teams made in Mediocre a lot of those times, is because I think I can skip steps right and I jump in, I start making decisions without taking the time to explain something. And you use the word clarity, but the other word I hope everyone heard was do, here's what we're going to do. You just didn't give him a concept. You said here's what we're going to do action. So we all know very clear on what we're talking about. So walk me through that. Give me a couple examples of how do you build trust in that opening? You know, call it thirty days, you know the walk me through some examples because, again, I like to have tactical things for the audience to take away from this. So, when I first got to let's say that the Toyota store, got everybody in the room, here's what's going to be most important. Clarity, consistency, Kins of accountability, called the three CS. This is now we're going to move forward. This is the reality. I know that everybody says that this isn't a problem, that's not a problem, but here's the math. Here's where we bring relative to everybody else. That's just the data and it doesn't lie. It's not emotionally attached to anything, and just let's just agree that it is what it is. Now here's the lead measures from four disciplines of execution that affect those lag measures. And so here's what we need to focus on. Appointments, and really appointment shown, because we there was a huge emphasis on calls and how much activity you could generate, right, and there's a lot of different, you know, opinions on that, and whichever one it is, I think that the consistency should trump everything. But I don't I'm not into having my associates with a bunch of activity and I would tell them because you got to make some deposits before we make the withdraw. So you guys make it all these calls. Do you think these calls are effective? Of course, there's no trust, so they don't tell you the truth, and I'm okay, well, if you're not going to say it, I don't think that everybody will call here needs to be called. I think we need to rouse some of these from the planner so they think it's a setup. But I said we were take care of this in this in this. Now let's talk about what the nonnegotiables are. nonnegotiables are. You're going to have you to show an appointments or two set appointments per day minimum, at least one show, right, and in order to do that, if you're that much more skilled on the phone, you can do it in eight calls or two calls or twenty two calls. That's that benefits you like a technician would by turning more hours. But no matter what, we all need to agree before we leave this room that that's the lead measure and know that when we you agree to that, you're also making me a promise and we're putting rings on each other's fingers, because don't tell me you're going to do something and then not do it. It's okay to you know, debated in here, but once we leave this room, don't tell me you didn't understand, you didn't have clarity. And we'll stay in here for the next eight hours if necessary, but there will be swift consequences if not. So take that seriously. It's not just because I'm removing all that other stuff so we can just focus on these drivers. These are, right, a condition of employment. Right. So, once we agree on that, everybody's not understand,...

...and severity of it obviously. So then there's got to be some other things tied to it, but there's got to be some sort of consensus. But we break down the three, the three kinds of trust, because people, and this might go a little bit deep into the weeds, but I think I don't even. Fine. Fine. So you've got personal trust. Personal Trust is the repeated experience of you caring and listening. Do they care about you as a leader? Do you care about them as a person, as as an associate? Truly do you? Do you have regret if you didn't do what you were supposed to do for them and now they can't provide for their family because you didn't document it, you didn't take do progressive discipline, corrective action, and all of a sudden they're getting blindsided because right, our enterprise says, why is this person still hear something? Five cars and what? They can't be here. Oh yeah, I agree. And then all of a sudden that person gets, you know, silently taking out back and they didn't have a chance to improve, which is the whole purpose of corrective action. Yes, so they need to know that you trust that, they trust you, you trust them. Then you've got technical trust, which is, you know, everybody get confused these three. Right. So Technical Trust is the repeated experience of you helping get things done, solve problems and getting better. Are you learning your product? Do you know your job? But that doesn't mean that you're ethically and morally trusted. You know, that's just your good, right job. So do I trust that you're competent? If I bring you a deal, are you going to be able to get it approved? Much different than personal trust. And then you've got ethical trust, which is repeated experience of your integrity and motion us. So ethical trust builds character, personal trust builds connection. Technical trust builds come competence. So those three is what the building blocks of trust are, and it's it's important because people want, people think that they have technical trust. That's all they need, right, and for something and listen, for some organizations that may be the most important driver of that. But what I love about what you said, and again, I hope audience you're listening to this, is I love that example of we're going to talk about the facts right. It's not. There's no emotions layered on top. These are not good, bad and different. These are just the numbers and then here are actions that we're going to do, when what I loved about what you did is you removed actions that could be debated in terms of their effectiveness. What you drove you you went to one step further out and said here's what we need. We need to have these two markers, or this one, in your example, two appointments and one shows up right, so we could do what we do. How you get there, that's up to you, and that, again is where that technical trust comes in. where, if it's taking you forever to do it or you're not achieving it, while it's my job as your leader to help you with the technical trust and start working on your skills and figuring out what's going on and how can I help you and what what what obstacles can I remove? So then that in turn builds the personal trust, because you care enough to be here right and then it's also the ethical trust, because I can look you straight in the eye and say we've tried this multiple times. If this may not be a job for you, but the person can shake your hand and say, well, at least we both tried, and so I think that's a really good example, because many people focus on the minutia tasks and set a number on that and stand over people with this minutia that people may not think is is is is right. And what I also liked about what you said was you, as a leader, knew what they were probably thinking. This is where you're a good leader. I already know that they hate this. Let me be the one and remove it, and they go, Oh, you just remove that. So I think there's so much in there. But I love those three levels of trust because they do like levers, all interact with each other to really break down barriers and build up a stronger structure, and it's so important. We tell them that we're going to reinforce it and here's the deposit we're going to make for them,...

...which still have now. It happens like clockwer, but it's very hard implement the managers because of all the work they're putting in. The least that we can do is we can confirm every single appointment and we can call everyone that didn't show right. Those are the two drivers, because that people aren't showing, there's something causing that. And if they're point, you know, the confirmation whatever he knows and they have personal ethical trust in the managers. They know that they're going to confirm them through repeated actions. If we don't write, did they confirm them, then they sort of question we must not be that important, because if it was, they would confirm them. And if they're not going to spot check, if they're not going to know that, this is a smoke appointment. So when you ratchet it down, that's how you get true a true cadence of accountability daily. So then on that point where I see a lot of businesses, I've been in multiple industries and where I see there's a breakdown. What we've been talking about is helping those frontline people but then that mad that person who's in charge, a manager, whatever title they have, there's not either. We haven't built it into their work plan. Where actually, you know, I'm speaking to someone the other day on one of the episodes and we said, you know, as you move up, some of your job is more inspection and accountability versus doing their job. But do you see a lack of training for that person? Right? There's an assumption that because they're in that position they understand this, but who's doing that consistent development for that person it do do you see that as a lack in business? It's a systemic problem throughout our whole industry because we focus on the technical aspects of it rather than the personal aspects of it and we don't teach. And I say this and I ready I can tell that's probably where you're going, but I'll take the bait because it's juicy. The there's going to be a massive amount of turnover when this market loosens up, when the inventory does come back and that Levy breaks and we go back to mini's and we go back to all the things that we all know we're going to happen and nobody wants to think past the end of this month. But when that does happen, many are not going to be prepared for the living it should be build us, don't you know, a brick house right now, that living in a straw house. And when that wave comes in, a lot of people are nice and comfortable to golf course and doing whatever it is that they do or not or not guarding those processes right now, and they're going to get woken up. And I think that when, at when, in the melee of all of that, what's going to emerge is that's going to be less about wizardry and F and I and who can desk the most und right now we're all one price right, and it's just this. Everybody should be honing their leadership skills because when this is done, at some point f Andi and sales managers are going to become one and there's going, you know, technology is just great allow for it to happen, and then it's going to come down to leadership, development, coaching, accountability. That's going to be the whole deal and that's whatever in this industry will pay big money for, because the technology will do a lot of this stuff. That is tribal knowledge from you know here to their to their. But the most pressing thing out of what you just said, in my opinion, is we assume that the managers do that. Most managers, you know this is. Call it what it is. We all have big EGOS and none of us want to raise our hand and say that we don't know, especially right and we got into a situation. You just try to Maake until you make it so and that they don't ask for for help. or You were good at what you did and a lot of times you're promoted to for instance, who are talking sales. I'm a great salesperson, that does not make me a great sales leader or a manager. And the point is is that, I think then it ties into I know product, I know what I did to be successful, but that may not scale across your whole team where all of a sudden you have people varying skill sets, and I think that's a huge missing training because we don't put those people through training. I know you went...

...to the Disney Institute, I believe, but we don't have that where we're sending someone who's now in charge of a team to go learn how to coach people and develop people. That's a whole other skill set. Then doing the job that you're you you know you're now running completely different skill sets. And to your point is they are not going to raise their hand and say well, I don't know. They're going to try and fake it or do what my previous boss did, and that may or may not be successful. Because I had this note and I'll throw it by you, is that I've seen many times where people are successful right, they even if they leave a dealership or a business and they go somewhere else, they're successful because of that structure they were in, but they may not know how to build a structure. Right, they were successful because that structure was there, but there's a whole completely different skill set to go out and build a structure. I've seen many times where people just fail because if they don't have that so it. To your point is we need to build those skills up in these managers because there are going to be a lot of changes. And for the audience who didn't understand some of what we were just talking about, maybe is that right now individuals are making a lot of money selling less cars than in the past or less product. So maybe they sell ten they used to have to sell twenty two generate the same income? Well, that may happen again, but if all you did was sell ten and make all of this money, the idea that I now have to sell twenty. There's going to be changes and you have to really cope through that and if you, as a leader, don't have that skill set in your tool kit, going to be messy and when the when it does turn, I know that I actually prefer it to be more disruptive because it puts our team into a competitive advantage because they're mentally conditioned for that. Right when everything like the beginning of Covid when everything was chaotic and nobody knew what to do, we just leaned into it. And you know everybody's that. What are we going to do? As you already know what to do. We've been training for this for years now. We're going to go grab martyr share, we're going to advertise when nobody else is advertising, we're going to go aggressive when everybody else is pulling back. And one thing that I think we go back to trust and as you're talking about the structure and and that sort of thing, it's you really got my brain spinning. I think it comes down to if you if you structure it, one of the most important things and it's a detriment mostly to GM's GSM's. They're the ones that are commit the crime. I was one of them. You don't provide role clear so many dealerships have three, four sales manager sitting behind sales tower doing the same thing. So somebody's a salesperson comes up, let's say it's a new less than six month in the business salesperson. They're all going to work deals differently. They're all going to have their own style. Who knows what the one person is going to give one trade value. One person is going to give a different one. Right, I know how much this thing's going to sell for. I don't care what that data says. I'm going to put this much in it. Watch me do this and and then when you lose five grand. But the point of all that is what's not happening, because we went through this multiple stores and I was in you know, I would get frustrated, angry because right, they weren't confirming the appointments, they weren't calling the no shows, but I wasn't given him clarity as to whose responsibility it was. And then right just like we were talking about with the commitment meeting at the end of the day at five o'clock, who you know I'm going to call? Who am I going to call and who's going to WHO's going to text me? How many appointments that we said are how many were confirmed? They better be a hundred percent, and how many of the noose shows didn't follow up? And then at the end of the night, at nine o'clock or whenever they get out of there, how many cars did we sell? So nobody loses sight of the most important things. I'm many cars we sell? How much money did we make? How many points do we ever tomorrow, every single day, and it never stops and you know, serious repercussions at those little, small things, because I'm like you're saying, we'removing all these things and I'm not going to make you do this and this and all these other things you said weren't impact for we're...

...going to Nark down the two or three, and those two or three they're nonnegotiables. They became your structure. But what I loved about that, and you know, when I when I was working in a previous job, that's what I would do. I would come up to them and I would say, okay, Brian, what's on your plate today? What are you what are you working on? And then they'd say this, this, this, all right, ask him in the beginning, because they would say, well, I don't know what you're looking for. So I listed three or four things every time till eventually I walked up to them and they would spout those three or four things, but they knew every day I was coming. It was a nonnegotiable. Why? Because that was on my checklist. That was my job to go ask the questions and and I had someone one time say, you know using you, Brian's worked for you two years. Why do you still ask him that? I said because it's my job. The minute I stopped doing that, Brian doesn't think that's important anymore and it becomes this trickledown effect versus. To your point is, I'm calling you with these questions or text me these every night. That's just something and if you're not here right someone should have stepped in to handle those duties, because it's not your job, it's not Brian's job, it's whatever role, title person is. So when they leave, someone steps in, because we still have to send it to Brian, because that's the the role in this in this business, you know, and that's where, I think to your point is it becomes a very personality driven business and, more importantly, it's always it always sits with you. So you are the general manager. You leave, it's not you. You're not the general manager the way I explained, as you're fulfilling those duties. If you go on vacation, someone has to step in to do those duties so that the machine runs while you're on vacation. And I think that's another thing that's missing in your idea of role clarity. It's not me, it's the role and whether I'm doing it, you're doing it, someone else's doing it. We have to follow that checklist in order to be, as you saying, you've said it multiple times, consistent, because consistency's going to breed that culture of success. Now you nailed it and we for a long time, and it was mostly because I would get first rate because I wasn't providing clarity. And I remember one point use cars. I was putting all the pressure on one manager about pricing and then everything was important, so nothing was right right. That's a good point. Here's the only things that are nonnegotiables. Pricing cars, you know, twice a week, merchandise in and comments, daily trade, walk appointment confirmations and no shows and appraisals, you know, just the activity of it. So we did a debt charger, just like you would on any sports team, specifically football. You know, you've typically got a one through four roster. So it doesn't necessarily mean that this person over here just slides into that. Who is the best of praiser that we have, because we're going to put our chips on whoever's the most consistent, and I he's error margin. WHO'S THE BEST AT PRICING? WHO's the best at this? Of that person goes down. This is the two slot. They move over. So and we posted it and it was clear. So if somebody got sick and they were the one that was and that's another thing. You know, in a fit of rage, you know, took computers out of the sales tower in the chairs and on a Saturday of them because everybody kept sitting there just out of habit, and I said look, there's really one person desk and deals were sold five hundred cars a month. That's because you're to distressed with all the other stuff. If, if you just do everything we're supposed to do, there's only one person, that's crazy. But you know what happens when you have one person? Everybody does it one way and every brings their stuff up because it's so busy. Like a chick fil a, when you get up to the drive through, you're already get your order ready because you know it's going to be fast because they're fast. So you got it right. But and it's the same velocity with desking deals. You don't need to have tell it's that story time. You know what do you need? Here's the needs analysis. I need a first pencil. That's really you shouldn't know where they want to be pricewise payment. Why is you should really know. They want this car, they...

...like this. They would like lane keep assist, you know, blind spot monitor. Right. What do they want to accomplish today? They want to buy a car. See What I love. But there's again, folks. I hope you're listening and I hope you. I always say I hope you go back and listen multiple times. I love that idea of the depth chart because I don't see it. I don't see it a lot I see it all about one person. That's the roll right in your case, that's to use car manager, and I always would ask them, well, who's the back up? And they look at me like I'm crazy and I said, well, what happens if he's sick or she's sick, they're out, they go on vacation. Does that mean that no one does? Oh, and you know what the trying to replace me? Well, what they'll say is more Oh, well, the general manager just do it like or somebody else will do it. Well, like it's some mystery on top of everybody else's job. We're going to do this, versus saying no, I'm going to step into this role. Well, now somebody takes over my duties in my previous role for the day or two, write and it becomes this shifting of the duties versus lumping everything on someone's play, just adding on and adding on, because when we add on, we didn't add on more time. So what happens is we do it faster and we skip a few things just to do check our box off. So we don't get yelled at because we said, well, we did it. Did we do it great? Probably not, because we didn't have the time to focus. I think that's a real skill that a lot of times people are just missing. And when you set it just makes so much sense to have your depth chart. Gets everybody in their lanes. It can play their game. You know, like you said, sports, I'm the tackle. I'm doing the tackles job, not the center's job, not the quarterbacks job. This is my job. Now if they move me and say somebody got hurt, I need you to move over to guard, well, I do guard stuff now for a while, not tackle stuff. Right. I think that that's where you can plug and play and, more importantly, I think you're more sex housephule, because everyone knows to roll. So initially, and I never talked that this conversation publicly, like this, we can go deep. So so we call that at the dealership of diffusion of responsibility. So when you've got two people like that, like that, use car manager we're describing imaginary, and this other manager, what happens is you can't hold either one of them accountable because we miss the number. Well, Hey, it's all, you know, we all own it. It's all. We share the winds, we share the losses, but it's really not like that. In Sports. Right, you know, you missed your assignment. So typically what happens is when there's a diffusion of responsibility, it's because there's low trust, technical trust or what you know. It then's typically technical. In that scenario, they just the person ethically. They're honest person. They just can't run that fast. I'm going to cover form. I got them, and then that person doesn't have a chance to get better. So what happens is this, you know, I'll give you an example of what happened at the dealership of one point. So I'm looking in there, watching everything go down, losing my mind and like why are you submitting these deals? Well, because the F and I guys help me out with confirming appointments. But that's not what we agreed to on the depth chart. Right, you're going to confirm the appointments. They're going to do that. Well, he couldn't figure out how to get this thing in the system. Well, that's because, you know, salesperson didn't follow the process. So now you're trying to manly override that. Right. So, since you're doing that, now you've got to do that. He's now doing your job and you're doing that. Why? Well, I don't trust that he is going to be able to figure it out. Okay, time out, pull the on, do on Chord. That's you know, and that's what most people aren't willing to do. At that point, it's time to, you know, do a time Ko because you're about to have a turnover. And yes, every the whole line needs to stop at that point, and that it typically the adrenaline and the endorphins are rushing. So most people won't do it. But that's a critical error. And as I started looking at it, so you know, we're to do this. Yeah, we'll do it. We'll do it. Then it comes down to technology, which is what has been a secret, I don't know, you know, secret sauce...

...at our dealership. I said, okay, here will make it real simple. Now, my gentleman at the desk of all been in F Andi. One of them has been a director. Turned off their ability to submit deals and pull credit. They losing their mind because they know deal structure as well as anybody. I said, it's not about the deal structure, it's about you being focused. I'm holding right accountable, not them accountable, for these for these appointments. That's not their job. They're not to do that. Their deal. Yeah, but they don't know deal structure. Will they better get better or I'm going to hold them accountable and I'm going to give an opportunity to improve. And we had to write up three quarters of the F Andi team when that happened, and they all figured out how to hang their own paper. They all got better and they had to go home and study and and they're all, almost all of those individuals are directors now. But see to that right there is so important because, as you said, sometimes, sometimes, leaders in your position, as you said, you were there, you saw your folks going to run into the wall and you let them run into the wall. A lot of times we don't let him run into the wall because we want to save it. or in that scenario of nobody was watching, you may get the report and say, Hey, we had a great day because you're not seeing the chaos where people are helping and I always call it you're creating dependency. Well, if I don't get to it, I know Brian's going to help me out and cover. Well, then to your point is that there's no incentive for me to get better. And then number two is it doesn't allow you in the leadership position to know what I need to train on. I always call it targeted training. So now I know. Just stay in your lane. If they're going to yeah, but we are going to miss our mark. Yeah, we might miss it today, but in the long term will be better for it. And, more importantly, you're not going to get mad at that person and get frustrated and you're as you said early on, that personal trust is going to diminish because you say we'll wait a minute, you're getting paid x and I'm doing half of your job. I hate our versus. Just let it go, stay in your lane and will work on it and if they can't get better, then we'll die try and trying to make them better, but if they can't, then we're going to find out they shouldn't be in that position. But then the team wins versus exhaustion everything else like that, and I love that. And folks, if you're listening to that again, go back and listen to what that was. You have to sometimes let people fail so you know what to train them on so they won't fail in the future. And if you don't, typically the top performers that are carrying the other ones because if you have a diffusion of responsibility, you can't hold them accountable. Now you'll get frustrated as a leader and the top performers will leave. Yes, it's not going to be the bottom performers. No, because they're they're the bottom performers are the ones that are actually being helped. And then the top performers are looking at you as a leader and saying, why am I doing this? Isn't you? This your job to fix this. The problem is the top performers, because they're helping for the team to win. And it's and again it's counterintuitive. Well, are you telling me you want us to fail and Miss our number? No, I want you to do your job so I can figure out who's not doing their job. Right now, everybody's covering for everybody, and it is that, you know, lack. It's an honestly, it's a lack of trust for you because you're afraid to let somebody else fail. And I get it it's your teammate, but the end of the day, you're going to leave if you have to watch voice. Yes, I'd rather miss the number and fix the problem. Yes, absolutely, and too often we don't do that. Let me have pivot for a moment on this because again, there was something else that you were talking about. And what I've always admired about you since I've known you is you have a one foot in reality meaning, and I don't make itself. Maybe I'll rephrase that. Some people think there's two feet out of reality. Think that could be. It's that one foot of reality, meaning you have a good,...

...good sense of what's going on today and how to keep that consistent. Right. Well, everything we've been talking about keeping today consistent, keeping the machine moving forward, but you also have another foot or an eye down the road to sort of what's coming next. So I'd like to talk a little bit about how do you one how do you see down the road? Right? Some people have their head down all the time. And then how do you start building that next step or talk about in a way or convince people that that's the direction we have to go when we're so successful here, they may not want to move, they may not want to shift, but talk to me a little bit about that because it's an interesting thing. You always do you, as they said, you have your success, but you're always where we going. Okay, I've never ask that question before with that's a that's a heavy one. So one thing is obviously I want to focus on where it's going almost to a to a fault right. So I've also got to make sure that I've got a left tackle that's are tight so that I can look down feel right try to find it open receiver. So the first piece of it, because I know a lot of people like, how do you find the time? It's a it's very easy to find the time when you focus first on solidifying the left side of your offensive line right with my case was my management team and we all talked about it and they know that if they let a customer get to me and sack me, if they if they create daylight, which causes problems, then they said, I get sacked and I can't stay in the pocket and throw down field right. So we talked about that Ad Nauseum. So we would always every six months, and actually used to be in the Saturny means for covid coming soon to a dealership near you, and we would talk about the next exciting things that were coming out and if there is interest or not, and then we would get a small little skunkworks team. Okay, here's what we're thinking. What about this? Does this make sense? Is there are a Wi and then we would just talk about legacy beliefs, where it's going and we would always have a way in the future. What should it look like? Vision? And then we posted. It would be a wallpaper in the conference room, on the on the Monitor, whatever. Okay. So does that align with that? If we want to go simple, fast, easy, what if is adding more preloads on the addendum going to get us closer to that or further way? Right, it's not, because a lot of times it comes down to this short term profitable item. Then might charging over sticker on non g wagons or something like that. You know, does that simplifier process or make it more complicated? I've had so many different products presented to us that don't simple, which I stole from you guys. Right, simple, fast, easy, but right it if I if it doesn't align with that, it's like a halo for everything we do. If it doesn't align with that, we say no to so many profitable ideas. That would make us a lot of money. To stay true to that, because we know who we are. So right me. That deviated from that ethical trust and that personal trust on that if I did, they would really get weirded out and they would you know, what are we doing? Thats some of Lims of core values. That's not part of our culture. And it's also okay for them to call me out, which they do frequently. Good, and that that's a sign of a great team. And I just want to point out again, folks listening to what you just said, is that you need to have that North Star. You need to whatever however you want to. I always sat you and I talked about this one time, is saying how do I want my customers to feel when they're done doing business with us, and then work backwards. What do I we have to do to do that? How do we build that a process so it's consistent? Then we go find those people to do that, then we go find the tech that can help us do that. So then anytime some change comes or someone present you new tech or a new this or a new that, you go back and look and say, does it align? Is this a replacement for something? Is this an add on? And then you go well, how are we going to do that...

...and how do we put it in place, and how long is it going to take, and who owns this and the responsibility. But still, I even with looking down the road, it's still tied to that, because is this going to help us accomplish whatever that is and still align versus? Well, if we do that, yeah, I see it down the future, but it's going to completely put our company at risk for what we've built in terms of brand, in terms of core values, that ethics. Yes, we can make money, but it completely contradicts what we want. So I really like that. Always going back to your North Star. And then we always share stories every single team member. You know, on Saturday mornings. What's a good experience that you had? What's know? We talked about the wins, we talked about and we remind them of the basics, you know, what got us to this point, so they don't lose sight of that left tackles the right. So you know, Oh, you sold twenty two cars last month, you sold twenty four cars. What was the secret? And every single time, every single week, well, I just stuck to the basics and I just focused and I just, you know, Bot blocked out the noise. Okay, no, secret closes, no right word tracks. No, no, I just really just came to work to work. But that's a really thing, a good thing again, that a lot of managers don't do is we focus so much on when we fail. Right, then we got to go fix things versus and and even in failure. This is another little side thing from management, is that not everybody failed. Right, if we wave, we did as a group, missed our number, whatever it was. If I looked at it, everybody's individual goals of probably half of my team exceeded what they were their personal goal. Well, why am I dragging all them down? Right? We're just everybody is and they're sitting there going I did really well. So same thing on the flip side is just because you hit your number doesn't mean everybody was successful on personally. And, more importantly, what I loved about it is what you said was what did you do to be successful so I could what behavior so I can repeat it and by getting them to say no, I just did I came in every day and I made my number of calls, or I was very organized and I did my follow up and I did this and you basically you are saying great to it. Again, rights, it worked to everybody exactly, and then you can go work with the people who didn't. Well, what didn't you do or what did you oh, you're in the wrong direction again. Let me get you back on it goes back to that targeted training that you were talking about earlier. And then we all talk about a positive experience. If somebody comes back from vacation, welcome back. Tell me about the experience at the hotel chicken. That's so smart, so smart, and anything you know who bought a an apple device lately? Did you buy it online? Did you buy it to the store? Walk us through that experience. Right, we had a family member the bought a car recently. Where did they buy it? What? Yeah, well, our experience, because what you're doing there for them is reminding them their consumers. And so now you're taking it out of automotive in you're saying, okay, I had a great time at this restaurant. What did they do? Because maybe there's something they physically did that we might be able to do. Because if you liked it, our customers like or, more importantly, if you hated it, a horrible experience. Great. What did they do or what didn't they do that made you feel that way? Are we doing that? Are we at risk of doing that? Could we potentially be doing that? I think going outside of our any industry and bringing things in, good and bad, and as using it as a mirror to what you're currently doing. Again, phenomenal, very, very smart. I told about a story when I was in an airplane go into a Toyota meeting last year and while I was up in the air, I realized that I forgot my air pods and at Midway on the where I was eating launch or whatever on the layover. So I'm panicking because I've got, I don't know many different calls and and you know I need them. So I'm looking online and using the plane Wi fi, I order repair and I'm go, go here. What how long is it going...

...to take me to get an uber to get from Mandalaid Bay down to the forum shops, you know, on the Strip right? And then it said would you like to have them delivered to you? So, but, okay, what time am I going to be to looking on thirtyzero feet up in the air and I'm conducting a transaction on are pods. These are pods and I placed the order. Okay, when will you be there? The person's going to, you know, show up and I literally hadn't even checked in. I was in line to check in. Person Calls Me. They were. They walked right into the lobby, complete the transaction, perfect charged, ready to go now. So I told them. At that point I paid I think nine or twelve dollars for the delivery fee, but I would have paid a hundred dollars sure had that level of service, because it was a knee. My time was so stretched at that moment and we're all busy, but when I take them and I insert them in the wow I could so imagine the wow factor. Do you think that I would feel I said I tip the guy. Do I feel like giving him grief about grinding up on what's his invoice and this is price? Absolutely not. That's right above and beyond service and that I paid him more than what even though they look at plenty of margin. I paid him more because it was exceptional service. Absolutely, and I think to that point is having that discussion and saying where in our customer interaction could we apply that right, so it could be hey, when you take the person's car, put their seat settings back to where they were. When you're handing it to a more reset the radio. How many times have I gotten in a car and all of a sudden I'm going, what the heck is this station right and everything's out of whack, and you know those types of things. Or walking them out to their car and said of Oh, it's part three. You know all over you all the plane, that we don't have enough use cars. And somebody calls to excess that's whe their cars worth, and we give them an answer. But why don't we say, well, where do you lead? You're a ten minutes way. How about I just come out to you exactly exactly, because that's who you're competing against? Or, as you've been a big proponent of, give them an answer and that's it. There is no well, maybe if I have to do all these things, or if you bring it down, why are we making it hard? And I think that really is the mantra of constantly looking at all of your interactions and saying, have we gotten a little sloppy? Right? So I always say there's two things. It's execution of the process and the process. Though. Are you executing well? Well, if you are executing at a hundred and it's still not good, well let's look at the process. Or if we have a great process. We don't know if it's good or bad because we're not executing right. We have to work on those, those two things. But I love everything you're saying about looking outside the industry and then holding that mirror up and learn something. Everyone else selling the associates on the Y, which you know I've violated many times in the past and you know every day, always hammers. We need email capture. We need ninety eight percent email captu, which really should be a hundred percent, because flipphones are now extinct because three gene right plug on it. So there's no excuse not to get an email editters. Well this you know he's an elderly customer. You know our Lincoln store has ninety two percent email capture and a hundred percent connected services. So it's all just a myth. But the point of it is being is this. I I would ask all the silica like, do you realize what happens when you don't get a valid email or you just use, you know, Brian Kramer at gmailcom. It's going to some Brian Kramer, but it's not me, because I wish I had that email right. But but when you do that or whatever, be grammer, a comcast that you know it's not, or be crammer, whatever one code they all used to because they don't feel like exactly. If we're going to retarget, you need mobile number, we need the email address, we need their name, we need the physical address so we can sit there and build a profile do the oracle stuff. facebook custom audience is all those things that you know, but they I find that they don't know and they're like, wait, what is this now? Oh yeah, so all of our marketing is based on that. Tens and are hundreds of thousands of dollars. So if you don't get that data, we just pass over you when we're doing our custom audience. So so your clients aren't going to get...

...marketed to. So if I told you right that I'll give you two thousand dollars personally to advertise with it, I'll market you on facebook and Google, you would say, Oh, what do I need to do? Well, really, all you need to do is get email, a valid cell phone number and you're part of that club. But if not, this person's getting we're gonna done that much. That person is getting their unfair share and you're getting none. So is it's so worth that to you and that, as I kept on, using a cattle prod and in a hammer on everybody's hand, you know, scolding them and yelling at him. When I explain at jared commit and explain that up on the screen as to exactly what it is he does and how he does it. We didn't have to really talk about that a lot after well. So again, for those of you listening again, I like pulling off, stopping a little bit and focusing on this. That idea goes back to what you said earlier. Is Role clarity. Right, if you don't understand why you're doing something, then you don't realize how it impacts others, as they said. I was having a conversation and on another episode about this and the the gentleman who I was interviewing said if someone, let's say in your in your finance department or in Your Accounting Department, doesn't understand why they do their job, they then they have no sense of urgency to one get the reports done at a certain period of time or what, because they don't know. Well, if you're the reports are late to me, then I can't do this or I can't do this and I can't do this. But once they understand how, their little peace in their mind. Oh it's not that important. Everything's important because everybody has a role to move the machine forward and if somebody lags for some reason, it impacts so many people. But they don't know that until you tell them that, and then most people will say, Oh, I didn't know that. Of course I'll do that. For for the team. We just assume they know and I don't think we can spend time over communicating the importance of each role and how it connects to someone else and why it's important for you to deliver on time and, more importantly, what happens and how it's slot slows everything down when we don't deliver on time, which you just described. Happened to US last week. So the accounting department came to leadership and said that the F and I team doesn't care about accounting. Look, why I would you say that? Because I wasn't my perception right. Well, because they don't turn their receipts and so they hold them in their offices. They don't give them to us, which I know what that causes. So bringing the offenders and some of them in with us for less than a year or promoted within the last year. Right, I said, you do, you do. You know why it's so important that you get these receipts and before midnight and get them in the safe and you make sure that in cdk you do the ACC right, you know, receipt for the reconciliation. Well now, and then they start saying, well, let me tell you what happen. I was here with this client of like, I don't need to know that. Do you know the reason why that affects that? No, it's the the breviate an answer of that twenty minute conversation. So then we get to the point and said they come in at seven o'clock in the morning or thirty, and if that hasn't been done, they sit because they can't do anything. So they wait and they wait and hopefully you show up at a thirty, but typically it's going to be nine, right before the meeting, and then you're in the meeting, sales meeting, you know, contributing adding value. Then they're still waning, they're still waiting and they said, where is that? Hold on, I will get it right now. You had it in there the whole time. And they don't realize that that's when their day so they said there three hours idol because they can't start their day for the reconcile the day until they have that. Oh, I had no idea to your point. Right so now, and they kept on fighting at all. They're just giving me a hard time. Why are they knitpicking me and accounting thinks that they're the devil and vice versa. When it actuality, we just didn't pull a curtain back right and you didn't explain it. And a lot of times,...

...a lot of disagreements in business or between departments comes from the fact that they don't know what the other team did. We address this during covid where we would have our staff meeting or our team, you know, whole team meeting on Mondays, and what we would say is we're going to take fifteen minutes out of this every other week and each department's going to explain to everyone else what they do and how it connects and all this. And people said, well, I didn't realize they did this or I didn't understand how they did that. That's pretty cool. Oh, I see how my department interacts with them. We broke down a lot of those barriers, thank goodness. In, you know, because it did come up a little bit and we said well, here's a solution, and so we do that. We still do it, maybe not as often now because most of the people are been with us for a while, but as new people come in, we have them meet with the other departments and meet with the other people and say here, spend some time with me, let me show you what I do, and it creates that bond amongst the team. I think that's really important. And Kate as man, I could talk to you forever on this. Look at this time just flies. So as we wrap up I usually ask five questions that are just fun. Quick I call him the one so that you just answer very quickly. So or what comes your mind. So the first question I love asking people because I'm really curious for you. So so I'm fascinating my son sixteen, seventeen in that you know, ten to eleventh grade. There's a lot of transformation with people in during that time. So if I said to you, if you look backwards to Brian Kramer, sixteen seventeen year old, what's the trait that's still consistent, something that's still consistent, you say, Yep, it was there it's still here. That's the first part. Second part is the reverse. If that sixteen, seventeen year old sege you now, what's the thing that would most surprise them? So the thing that is is still there, I would say, is tenacity or drive. That's what's allowed me to get through this significant amount adversity that I've been through and not tap out, sometimes to a fault. What is no longer there is the blaming, blaming circumstances, blaming others, blaming situations, not taking ownership, not confronting people head on, you hinting and hoping that they're going to know what I'm talking about, without just telling them, looking them in the eye and just telling them what is going on. And so it sounds like this idea of accountability, personal accountability, and also the ability to hold others accountable and have that confidence. It sounds like in yourself and not trying to out work. There's a you know, which I just learned here recently, but I used to just think there was a limitless amount of time and I could just make up for it by working more. And next thing you know, instead of working an eight hour day or twelve hour day, I'm working a fourteen, fifteen, sixteen hour day and then, instead of eight hours of sleeping, at four hours of sleep, and I'll just keep out running this and at some point it's going to catch up. But it never does, because it doesn't have to be like that. The work has to be distributed and I definitely that that. That was a painful learning lesson and I don't think that that's something that comes in natural. That's something that has to be learned. That's a great answer. Number two, what's one thing you're reading, listening to our watching that's inspiring you that you would share with others? Well, I just read this for I think the fifth time, Bob Iger's book, the right of a lifetime. I'm reading a lot of things on the future of work, the future of AI. There's a book that I just read about the metaverse by Cathy. Forget what her last...

...name isn't the Brian Something who was the chief evangelist for sales force, Brian Soulis, okay, tall as I love Brian sell us. Catherine hackle is the author of the other one, but that's in the technology piece. But in terms of the best well rounded story I've read in a long time, is Bob Iger's right of a lifetime. He talks about marvel, talks about Pixari, talks about the journey that he went on with Steve Jobs and how Steve Jobs closed that deal in the lessons that Steve Jobs taught them and that Steve Jobs concerns about Disney's culture interfering with pixars culture and how to just empower really talented people to do what it is that they do, which I've been fortunate. You know this. Where I'm at now, it's not about management leadership, it's about moving roadblocks and it's not like they work for me. It's the Steve jobs quote. I let them tell me what to do and I write constantly. Keep asking him what are we missing? Where do we need to go check this out? This is something I saw on another industry. What do you think? Like you said, how could this apply to our business? and Bob Iger, at the end of that book he says a lot of profound things, especially the last appendix. He goes through all of his rules to live by, which are powerful. I listened to by a hundred times. But but the most interesting thing is how he decided to go away from just pure animation into Disney plus and instead of licensing that to Netflix and other streaming services, how did he build that with the existing staff? And I think there's right parallels to our business in that. And a bunch of people that were the pay plans were tied to legacy systems. They had archaic infrastructure. They didn't you know, they pay this going a billion dollars to overhaul their parks from o nine to two thousand and twenty. That just that. They were also building a whole new platform at figuring out how do you pay them on this that doesn't exist yet? Then it's not going to be profitable for two or three years, right, while still keeping your foot, you know, over here making sure you don't get sacked, like you were talking about earlier. There's so many parallels in that book that this whole conversation. So if I listened to that book, I'm a I'm a big Bob Eager Fan. It's a great it's a great book. I was definitely something I listened to and I really loved it. You traveled a lot. So where's a place that you would love to travel that you haven't been to yet? Or Bora? MMM, that's a nice and no one's ever said that. That's when I like. Okay, if I took all of your friends, close friends, family, people who really know you, put them in a room and said describe Brian in one word, what's the word they would use to best describe you? That's a tough one. Be a lot of different ones. Depends on the day. Right. My wife would say a lot, but I don't. I would say deterbine, stubborn. I would say there's a lot of words. Okay, all right, but yeah, okay, Gotcha. All right. Last question. We talked about a lot of things and again I want to thank you for taking the time. This has been really a lot of fun. If you hope that the people who are listening to this take one thing away from it, what's the one thing you hope they really embrace that you mind for conflict to ship away, to get down to the minerals, which is, you know, the goal, which is trust. If if I could go back, and you know, you and I are both in the situation where, same situation, we're trying to pay it forward and teach these lessons, and I know I was talking recently that, you know, grant cardon told me in two thousand and eleven. You need to get big into social media. I'm telling you, is going to be like an ABC, CBS and them. That was...

...estate INMPOR I go grant. Come on, man, that's a little out there. And but his his vision was bigger than mine and he just I didn't see it right. So a lot of people listening to this or not going to see what we're talking about until years later, right in the ready to receive the message, and I wish I just wasn't ready to receive the message at that point. But if I could go back in time and every situation I've been which I have no regrets, just lessons learned, I would make sure to over correct in mind to make sure that every trust each other. And because you can tell when, you would, every leaves a room. You can tell based on the body language, their facial expressions right if they're bought in or if they're not. And you get a decision at that moment. Do you just let them walk out the door and just pretend it didn't happen, or do you say hold on a second, catch the or sit down. We're starting over and most people don't want to go through that pain. Oh, we've already been here for an hour. Well, we're going to be in here until we're on the same page. And it's okay for you to disagree with each other, it's but it's not okay to not talk about that and then walk out of here with artificial harmony. That's not that's not a bounce right, and mining for conflict prevents all the conflict. It's kind of intuitive, but you got to just keep on grinding and grinding and if somebody doesn't have ethical and Personal Trust, forget about the you know, because most people folks on technical trust. That's nicet important of the three. So that's what I would go back. Anytime I've been in a bad situation, drama, I'm like, why did I even you know, why didn't let that? Why did I do this? Sooner it will always came down to them. That's great, unbelievable man. Thank you again. Listen, Brian. Appreciate your time. This is I hope everybody just listen to this multiple times because it is just so rich with a lot of things that really and also I appreciate the tactical. You know, a lot of times people talk in theory, but you really would go deep into some tactical saying. So how do people connect with you? Where do they find you? On Social Media? How did they connect to I'm sure some people will want to reach out and, you know, pick your brain. So where do they where do they find you? I'm on Linkedin under Brian Kramer, on on Youtube under Brian Kramer, instagram, Cramer Brian, facebook, Brian Kramer fl I'm on Ticktock as Cramer Brian, which is if somebody would have told me your ago that I'd be on ticktock and that it would be taken off like it is, I would like crazy. That's one of those things I have to have to do, except my kids always laughted. You are not allowed to be their eyes if I'm going to embarrass there as their friends. Yeah, so, anyway, I friended all of their friends. There you go. So I'll link all of these ups. So again, folks, if you're listening, Brian will take the time. PEP will connect. He is that type of person that will help you out. He is truly one of the people who will pay it forward. So again, thank you so much. Brian. Folks audience, you know the drill. Please make sure if you have anyone in your network that could benefit from what Brian just shared with you, please make sure you share this out to them. It's really important. You make sure that your rate the podcast and you subscribe. That helps us spread our message out, because the goal of this always has been to help you when you're in that situation and you're leading and you say to yourself, great, I'm in charge. Now what the heck do I do? While we're here every single week with a guest that's going to give you some tactical tips to help you become the leader that you want to be. So thank you so much. I know there's a lot of places that you can listen to content, but the fact you spend some time with pride to me. I hope you found value. I know we did. We had a great time, so I hope you did to look forward to seeing you on the next episode and Brian, once again, thanks so much. Thank you,.

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